"Defiance Games in the news again" Topic

So I don't really want to jump to conclusions here, but I think this is worth reading about. I'm not a Torn Armor backer, but Defiance Games has already jerked at least one company around – Proxie Models – and may have been lying through their teeth about the purpose of their management changes and so on.

Or they may not, but in any case, if this is true, it looks like they've
a) not supplied the products they said they would for another company's kickstarter and
b) kept that money for themselves to throw into their own products and
c) their own stuff also arises from a kickstarter, which suggests that their own KS was poorly thought out to begin with in terms of funding

Torn Armor Kickstarter Update

This is why I don't like Kickstarter. I got burned once and I have a real dislike as to how some people involved in this do business. Don't get involved unless you have money to throw away.

Well, I have to say with KS I've not been burned yet. Of the fourteen projects I've backed, they've either been delivered or delayed, but the delayed ones are all showing progress (or in the case of some Second Edition type deals, part of the backer rewards were PDF bundles of the first edition, so I was happy to have those to use while waiting).

That said, this IS a reminder of sorts that we are taking a gamble when it comes to KS's. It's just really too bad about Torn Armor – even though it wasn't something I backed it was something I had some pretty high hopes for, and the team behind it really seemed to care – but didn't think of looking into Defiance Games before taking them on as suppliers, I guess?

And by suppliers I mean swindlers, but hey, that's the fine tradition of company law for you.

Defiance Games was crooked before Kickstarter. I can't believe anyone would still give them money.

Leigh

yeah, Defiance is cutting a huge swath through people's confidence. It's really unfortunate for everyone involved. I feel really bad for those backers that will loose out.

This will give KS doubters ammunition for some time to come.

The system is sound and it makes things possible that would never have been possible before. When I started I had never done anything like this before and folks had faith that I could do it. We managed to pull it off well and now I've got a solid system of dependable people working towards projects. BUT that first one is going to be tricky.

I think the moment you stop taking risks in life, you've pretty much made the decision that safe is better than wonderful possibilities.

Methinks it's time to take up a collection for a wet-work team.

Or we can just nuke 'em from orbit.

"don't want to jump to conclusions"? Seriously? After all the people DG screwed?

If it looks like a duck and quack like a duck, it is a duck.

Much of this is bad but could be attributed to poor management. The one statement about not having the cash on hand and "We are gearing up for another release to improve cash flow" tells me that DG used the Torn Armor funds to funds their own projects. That is really, really bad. There probably is a legal term for this…

Oddly enough it's exactly how certain scams work, you borrow money to pay the previous investor back, borrowing larger and larger sums till you bolt with the cash.

Anyways, I did note that Reaper offered to help production which is bad ass of them. Now that is a game company!

This doesn't say much about kickstarter, but it says a lot about Defiance or whatever they'll call themselves next week. Nothing new, mind you. To me, the real shocker is that anyone would still do business with these guys.

Open Letter time at DG:
facebook.com/DefianceGames

As I have money riding on this, I really hope we get a good explanation.

I too am disappointed with this news and encourage the Torn Armor team to keep struggling to get this game up off the ground.

I backed it a substantial level and have a financial stake in this project; but more so than the financial stake I have, my young girls also participated in backing this game with some of their own money. They want to design and publish games, so I agreed to let them select a Kickstarter if they contributed $25 USD each of their own money (money earned in tips working at a private club event clearing tables at annual 'Lady's Tea'). Torn Armor is an object lesson of the development process from idea to product. They have been following the updates and are very aware, even now of the events as they have transpired. I will say it was difficult for them to understand that Torn Armor may not happen and their investment is gone regardless if the Torn Armor is produced.

The girls feel that Torn Armor should continue to work in producing the game and will support the development team by waiting. I also share that sentiment but add as an investor I would like the name of the person who suggested Defiance Games and Tony Reidy as a reasonable development team resource.

Here are the comments I left on the Defiance FB page:
**************************************************************
I am so glad I stealth backed your kickstarter through Torn Armor.

Thanks for teaching my girls a wonderful object lesson in amoral business practices. They were very excited, at 9 & 10 to back Torn Armor a company they viewed as led by a strong woman. They wanted to watch a product move from idea to reality.

They want design games and were very curious as to how the process functioned. So I agreed to let them select a Kickstarter and then we could track its development. They knew Alyssa Faden from other projects so they selected Torn Armor. Now you have taught them that sleaze exists at all levels of life. Even in the toy industry.

They read the latest update in the Torn Armor kickstarter and cried.

We can't wait to meet you all at the next con and thank you, in person, for the reality check.

Defiance I guess posted this on facebook.

"An open letter to Alyssa Faden of Torn Armor.

Alyssa,

Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.

Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.

This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.

After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.

You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.

I am really disappointed in you.

John Morse"

facebook.com/DefianceGames

This is why net-30 and 50/50 terms exist. Someone really needs to put together a kickstarter before you manufacture prep course or something. I've never seen anything on how to get stuff made. It's all about how to make your kickstarter a success and how to market it or shipping charges are insane. Maybe I'm an idealist but this situation with my company would have gone down a lot different. Taking a job like that is a commitment. Lose money, friends, sleep, and body parts to get it done. I swear companies like this only exist because they can keep stealing from people. We have records of them stealing from 3 different companies at this point.

I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that "We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time" and "We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow."

It really is this quote that says it all.

--From the latest update of Torn Armor. link

I am very happy knowing that Howard and Mexican Jack have been able to far remove themselves from this criminal debacle and keep their good names intact. Where did Tony go to hide?

Some poor person pledged 1,500! Not to mention the people who pledged in the hundreds.

I feel so sorry for them all.

I'm sorry but, do Defiance actually expect anybody to believe they are innocent in all of this?

Tony is still there, he just keeps moving names around with the title of "CEO" to hide behind. There is absolutely no reason at all to believe that anyone else is really at the helm of that company.

That open letter has the whiff of Tony Reidy to it. It was funny when it was just wargames factory making rubbish. It was baffling when the schism came and the evil Chinese stole his company. Now, with actual damage done to multiple people in the hobby, it's angering.

Leigh

Very sad news indeed

I bet Defiance Games, who normally posts on this forum, won't even dare to show their face in this topic. Surely there must be some legal action that can be taken against them?

Honestly at this point, as ironic as things have ended up, Wargames Factory/Ghost is probably one of the best miniature makers to go to if you need miniatures

Oh absolutely I wasn't having a go at current wargames factory.

Leigh

I am very happy knowing that Howard and Mexican Jack have been able to far remove themselves from this criminal debacle and keep their good names intact.

I realize that Howard is a likable guy who has produced some wonderful stuff for our hobby, but I can't just give him a pass after all the excuses he made over and over for Defiance's behavior, giving them the veneer of respectablility and hiding what was really going on there.

This is hurting people, from the "gamer on the street" who lost a few bucks to threatening the very existence of honest small companies that didn't do enough research to learn that they shouldn't have gotten involved with Tony.

Defiance is done if they do not return the money and Torn Armor does not post a positive statement of resolution; and then they may still be done. The only way Defiance Games can survive is by returning the money, otherwise this is it for Defiance Games.

Third time is a charm, and that charm is an Albatross.

Sadly I'm not sure it IS it for Defiance Games, or at least the minds behind it. I'm sure even if they fold up after this debacle, Tony R. will just slither away and set up some other front with grandiose promises and an appalling lack of competence or ethics. I try to believe the best about people, but I can't believe that about Defiance Games any more.

-Will

That open letter has the whiff of Tony Reidy to it. It was funny when it was just wargames factory making rubbish. It was baffling when the schism came and the evil Chinese stole his company. Now, with actual damage done to multiple people in the hobby, it's angering.

Leigh

That WGF comment kinda rubs me the wrong way, the whole casual rascism of an "evil chinaman"… because since parting ways with Tony they have been a FINE company, and I don't think that dream Forge has anything negative to say about them.

Plus I happen to love my Zombie Vixens, Male and Female Survivors, and the WWII sets seem pretty good too. (The space stormtroopers that AREN'T Dreamforge are utter though, why they keep them in circulation is beyond me)

Three different threads on the same subject and yet no one is complaining about that…..

This is such an outrage that people need three places to vent. ;)

-Will

Muzzlehead, et al,

This is an unfortunate situation to be sure. However, without making any judgements on the parties involved or events that have unfolded, allow me to make a general comment about Kickstarter.

People who choose to contribute to a KS project are called "backers." They are not called customers. Kickstarter is a method to contribute to the development of new projects. Because KS projects have a good success rate, I think that some people have come to regard the projects as discounted commodities rather than as developemt project with fraught with inherent risk.

Event he most successful project seem to incur delays and unexected expenses. Many die on the vine and backers suffer only disappiontment. However, there are those that get funded and run into trouble. That is the nature of beast. Like they say about playing the stock market--don't invest more than you're willing to lose.

Again, these comments are about Kickstarter and how people regard KS projects--not about this particular situation or the parties involved.

Thank You XRaysVision for articulating for the community what KS is, I failed to offer a general definition in my initial comments.

I should clarify my confusing statements.

"I will say it was difficult for them to understand that Torn Armor may not happen and their investment is gone regardless if the Torn Armor is produced.

The girls feel that Torn Armor should continue to work in producing the game and will support the development team by waiting."

That statement was intended to demonstrate that I was aware of what KS is (as you define it), and that I explained it to my children. I also never used the term customer or buyer but rather investor and backer (the vernacular of KS).

As an investor I am privileged to question the use of resources and report on the failure of an investment. I try to remain in the vernacular and spirit of the project. This particularly project did offer rewards if it succeeded,my children and I anticipated them if the project was a success (not if it was just successfully funded).

For Clarity's sake, I told my children they were making an investment and it may result in nothing or something very cool.

I told my children this before we backed the KS. I did not expect it to fail (and still think something may come of it) but I also knew the risks. That was the whole purpose of the object lesson, having them select a KS and add their own money to it. The purpose of the object lesson was not so they could get toys but rather experience the development process of an idea and participate in the development as an investor.

It has been an exceptional object lesson for them. They now know that nothing is guaranteed when investing until the product or financial disbursement is in hand.

So even though they were very aware of the risks they are still children and learning about reality, so this situation is hard for them to absorb.

I want to share with the 'gaming community' a unique way poor business practices can directly effect investors, as much as I want my children to learn of the realities of the market place.

I did not invest in Defiance Games for a reason.

Wow this is getting play on TMP, Frothers AND TGN. I think Defiance has blown what little respectability they have left out of the water.

-Will

I probably shouldn't comment, since I suspect this whole thing will involve legal action, and my sympathies are strongly with Alyssa and those many, many people who've trusted Tony, including myself.

I read Caesar's comment, and wondered whether he had a point, though. I won't go into details at this time, but it became clearer and clearer that the founder of the company could not be relied upon in any way. I did a lot of work I wasn't paid for myself. If my involvement in the early months of DG, and my encouragement of the brief, ill-fated attempt by Gary Pelletier and team (good, honest people to the best of my knowledge) to take control of the company gave any sort of 'veneer of respectability', I am sorry for that.

My reputation is important to me, and I regret that I've felt obliged to keep silent in public. Privately I have offered my assistance to those who have been burned in their dealings with DG.

Muzzlehead

I really am sorry for how this turned out for your children. Life Lessons are always useful, but I am not always persuaded they are always worth the price. I do hope Torn Armor does get produced, and you get to see some happy smiles down the way.

Shame on Defiance. Shame shame and nothing but shame.

One usually has to deal with the financial services industry to find this level of obfuscation, incompetence, and malfeasance. Special thanks to Tony Reidy and sockpuppet John Morse for bringing a new level of douchebaggery to the gaming community.

Well said Muzzlehead. You are seem to be doing a good job of making good use of this unfornate experience.

My comments weren't just to you, though. They were also of a more general nature. I'm concerned that many people are assuming successful funding means a success product. I see comments complaining about delays in production, shipping, etc. all the time. In some of these, it is obvious that the writers attitude is that, by investing, they are simply buying deeply discounted products.

I think it's useful to do a reality check from time to time and remind those few (albeit vocal) people that KS is way way to invest in development and that it's not a big box discount warehouse store.

I really hope no one was offended by my comment because that certainly wasn't my intent.

That WGF comment kinda rubs me the wrong way, the whole casual rascism of an "evil chinaman"… because since parting ways with Tony they have been a FINE company, and I don't think that dream Forge has anything negative to say about them.

Plus I happen to love my Zombie Vixens, Male and Female Survivors, and the WWII sets seem pretty good too. (The space stormtroopers that AREN'T Dreamforge are utter Bleeped text though, why they keep them in circulation is beyond me)

I think Leigh's post was sarcastic- it was Tony who heavily implied that it was an evil Chinese takeover. Didn't appear to me to be a comment on WGF. Evil Chinese should have been in quotes to be more clear.

I think it is interesting that apparently the DG webstore has been closed for maintenance apparently since September.

I think it is interesting that apparently the DG webstore has been closed for maintenance apparently since September.

So lets get this straight. They are taking measures to generate cashflow but they are not doing anything to generate cashflow. Wow.

Every post Tony makes on that FB thread only sinks him further.

That thread is the craziest thing I have ever read.

Hiya BigNickR I was being sarcastic about the evil Chinese certainly. I'm on a phone and haven't found the inverted commas yet!

Leigh

I hope this is the last nail in DG's coffin, for the sake of the independent SF/Fantasy miniatures hobby (that's non GW).

They are rotted to the extreme. In fact just looking at how Wargames Factory has improved since they got new management tells lots about how much this Tony Reidy guy should be banned off the wargaming world.

Thought the best comment on FB was

"Definance Games"

Apparently from what Torn Armour is saying, the measures Defiance Games are taking to generate cashflow are taking money from people and then not giving them any product. That's a heck of a profit margin. I wonder if he learned that method in that fancy MBA school at MIT (or whatever).

Hiya BigNickR I was being sarcastic about the evil Chinese certainly. I'm on a phone and haven't found the inverted commas yet!

Leigh

Noted, apologies if offended. Emotions are running high due to this being an open wound on the community (and ethnic hatred, accusations of theft flying every direction, and name calling don't HELP)

I know I only "like" DG on their FB so i can get these gems as quickly as possible. At this point I wouldn't buy from them if they had the only cure to cancer.

link

In case it gets deleted:

Defiance Games · 4,537 like this
29 minutes ago ·

Let us preface all this by saying that Defiance Games has had it's share of ups and downs and we've made a lot of mistakes along the way. It has definitely not been a pretty journey in the least and we are well aware of our reputation.

Over the last few months we have been regrouping and rebuilding to fix our past and bring new products to the market – helped along by a small, but successful Kickstarter in October.

That all said, we can't stand by and have our reputation further destroyed by statements that only tell a part of the story.

Alyssa Faden (or Natalya Faden) of Torn World has made a statement that basically says we are to blame for her Kickstarter failing. This is absolutely untrue. We don't believe she could afford to finish her Kickstarter with us or anyone.

The Torn Armor Kickstarter – see here: link

Torn raised $67 USDK in April 2013 primarily by including a large number of miniatures as stretch goals and a free shipping offer – similar to what the large companies like Mantic Games do – when they have $1 USDM+ Kickstarters. The core game had 12 unique miniatures (39 total figures per set). They hired another company to sculpt these figures for them and provide manufacturable STL files.

This didn't happen. It was clear early on that the sculpts that were being produced were not manufacturable at all. A combination of undercuts, ultra-thin part areas, and other problems would mean anyone would be hard pressed to actually produce them. Alyssa then described these sculpts as "sketches" that could be used by other sculptors to create manufacturable models. Torn also hired a number of physical (i.e. non-digital putty/greenstuff) sculptors to make versions of these as well.

The sculpts from Alyssa's digital sculptors cost close to $20 USDK from what she has told us. This doesn't include the additional sculptures ($300-400 or more each) done in putty.

At the same time, as Alyssa realized that nothing she had paid for from the digital sculptors was usable, she was receiving quotes from China factories to produce the miniatures. These were coming back 30% or so over what she had "estimated". One quote we saw put the molding alone at $45 USDK. (i.e. it didn't include the manufacturing of any miniatures – just the molds to do so – leaving $20 USDK for sculpting, printing, shipping, etc). The project was absolutely doomed at this stage.

At this point she called us and wanted to know if we could help do this project for her. We pushed back as we already had a lot going on here and didn't want to complicate things. She kept coming back to us asking us to please quote on the project. Finally – and how we now regret this – we did.

Her plan was that she was going to have a new digital sculptor take the digital files and "fix" them to allow them to be molded. This sounded doable and we put in place a project to mold and produce 500 core box sets. Keep in mind there are 12 unique figures in this box set and 39 figures per box. It is not a huge project but something that should take a few weeks to produce after receiving usable files. (Our project also did not include any of the 20+ other sculptures – some of them quite large multi-part expensive pieces including a massive Mu warmachine thing in many separate parts – that were needed to satisfy the Kickstarter – go visit her Kickstarter page to see all the add-on sculpts that were part of this – our part was just the core box set. She planned on having us quote on the additional work for these figures after the first project. At the time we did not know there was probably zero budget for this available.)

We drew up a contract together and this was our responsibility list:

1. Create molds for plastic production from TW-supplied master sculptures
2. Produce plastic figures from DFG-created molds.

Torn were responsible for giving us workable 3D files – which she failed to mention in her post – which we would of course work with the sculptor to make sure we could use. And that is where it fell apart.

As this was happening, the conventional sculptors had finished their work. We were ready to start molding those and producing parts. We sent pictures of the ones we received to Alyssa who posted them up on her Kickstarter pages. Based on the feedback she received she decided that the physical sculpts weren't good enough. She instructed us not to produce them and wait for the digital files to be redone.

She brought in a sculptor who began to work on the files. Unfortunately, at the time we didn't know that the files were such a mess that he was basically just re-sculpting everything from scratch. Reportedly, he was being paid $100 USD-200 each – a really low price for the amount of work he was doing. Unfortunately, as he began to deliver the files to us we saw that changes needed to be made. The technical fixes themselves were fine – but the way they were being laid out presented issues with undercuts and in some cases used way too many parts per figure.

For example – the Mu Slinger – a 20mm tall mouse person – was delivered in five separate parts: head, two arms, body, and tail. Alyssa's instructions were to have as little gluing for the end customer as possible. We went back with a list of changes and suggestions on how to repose the sculpts to get close to a single piece figure.

The sculptor refused to communicate with us. We were forced to play the telephone game through Alyssa. But even then that did not result in changes. Alyssa was pulling her hair out – we were pulling our hair out as well. We just wanted to get some manufacturable files, print them, make the molds and produce what we were hired to make.

We recommended Alyssa hire another sculptor to try to fix the files – someone we trusted and whose work we respected. That was in December – only a short time ago. He started to look at the files and manipulate them. He quickly realized – as the original "fix" sculptor had – that one of the problems was the original files themselves. He asked if we could receive the native ZBrush files to work from. Those would be layered ZTL files. If he had those, he could make changes quickly.

To be safe, we asked Alyssa to ask the original digital sculptors for a sample of the original files to make sure they worked. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Instead, Alyssa apparently gave those digital sculptors $1,000 USD to send her all the files without looking at them first. (We found out at this point that she and the original sculpting company had had a falling out and weren't on speaking terms – we don't know the whole story.)

The new sculptor received the files and discovered that they were a mess. In his words: "the issue isn't the poses as much as how they decided to layout the layers gaps and spaces that are hard or impossible to patch up because they bound them together. You can cut a piece off there is nothing under it lol have to fill the blank and then smooth it and it looks like crap."

He spent a lot of time and got us the one hoplite pose finalized which Alyssa posted January 8th. We thought we were now going to be okay but the more the sculptor dug into them the worse the files were.

Alyssa told us that she could not afford to pay for additional sculpting. We HAD to make what we had work. Unfortunately, that was impossible given the files we had to work with. Unless someone were to completely re-sculpt these figures from scratch there was no way we could produce them.

Defiance Games is now a scapegoat for Torn's decision to shut down this project – a convenient and easy target because of our own well-documented problems. We don't deny them – we definitely have had them – but we feel they are being used now to cover up Torn's inability to fulfill their Kickstarter.

We signed on to make their figures but we were never given the files that would allow that to happen. We are still prepared to finish the project and we've budgeted the materials and man-hours to do it. We just need usable files and we would be thrilled to do the work and make this project a reality.

Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right – and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum. Along with offering to complete the project if we're given files that can be turned into miniatures, we've also offered to work out a payment plan. We'd love to see Alyssa's project succeed, but we won't lay down and let Defiance be dragged through the mud for something that is – for once – not our fault.

We did not complete the project – because we did not receive files that could be turned into produceable miniatures. If we had these – this project would be done now. We now highly doubt it would have shipped given the financials…this was a severely underfunded Kickstarter and anyone can look at the sheer amount of figures, printing, and shipping and see that.

We know we don't have a great track record and we've been working to fix it. We know we did not complete the project. But we also want people to understand the other side of this story and why that is. This is a terrible situation for everyone involved and the result may be that both our companies go down because of it.

My 2 cents:

None of this explains why you can't refund monies that were paid to you for delivery of a product. A product that you yourself have said that you cannot deliver.

If you want to be paid for work done, prove that any work HAS been done, that is one thing. Taking all the money and saying "So sorry charlie" doesn't cut it. Blaming Torn Armor's (supposedly) poor infrastructure for delivering unrelated product to YOUR obligations to them is simply an attempt by you to cloud the issue.

It didn't work when you were part of Wargames Factory, it didn't work when you cheated Rust Forge with their shipping containers (have you even settled THAT?) and it's not going to work now.

The gaming community is not DESTROYING your reputation, Torn Armor is not destroying it, YOU ARE.

Side note… DID they ever settle up with Rust Forge?

Yep, their excuse for why it didn't work out I'm treating with an open mind, but the issue is where's their money.

Big fan of that gif, it was in my original (eaten by "THE BUG") post on this

The plot thickens…. my girls are learning an outstanding object lesson in investing and business. I do not think this situation is black and white. I think responsibility is absolutely on both sides for this mess.

Both parties seem to have failed in properly researching the other. I suspect market conditions drove their hastily formed relationship. It seems 'Moments of Clarity' occurred for both parties post-contract and after the disbursement/reception of funds. I suspect this entire debacle would have been avoided if proper vetting had occurred on both sides.

For example every time I take a new painting contract I review and clarify information needed, then I decide if I can complete the work. And if it is a new client (or one not physically familiar with my work) I offer a free example of my finished work before we even set a contract.

This demonstration of my ability requires the client to cover the costs of production (models & shipping) but not the labor & expertise (I also cover most other materials such as paint & glue or whatever). Basically it only costs me my time & their risk is the cost of the model & shipping.

If my example & rates are acceptable then we contract a job, if not they keep the example and no harm & no foul. We each have a clear set of expectations and we can clearly contract those expectations.

And I think this is the crux of the problem in this struggle between (Tony Reidy) Defiance Games & Torn Armor (SoulJAR) , neither side had a clear set of realistic expectations that were properly contracted due to their own eroding situations.

This reminds me of Curt Schilling 38 Studios and Rhode Island… except in that situation I was not a tax payer of Rhode Island.

And I think this is the crux of the problem in this struggle between (Tony Reidy) Defiance Games & Torn Armor (SoulJAR) , neither side had a clear set of realistic expectations that were properly contracted due to their own eroding situations.

The problem I have with Defiance games is that they've received money to provide goods in the way of miniatures to be produced on an expected schedule. This clearly has not happened. Not only that, Defiance Games says the sculpts are unworkable. It seems to me that they should refund the money to Torn Armor and the problem goes away for Defiance Games.