"GW troubles." Topic

On Tabletop Gaming News is an article which says that following the latest GW earnings report and the 25% drop in their stock that the company is Terminating it's management at many overseas locations, will be closing a lot of overseas stores, and may be dropping many of the WHFB armies. I am not a GW hater though I don't care for many of their policies. The actions being taken can not be good for our hobby.

Most manufacturers in the hobby are far smaller and much more flexible than GW, so I wouldn't worry too much yet.

The actions being taken can not be good for our hobby.

Actually, when you consider what happened to those involved in the "Golden Age" of GW, a bleeding of talent might be the best thing!

Consider we now have:
Warlord (Bolt Action & Black Powder)
Mantic
Perry Bothers (Plastic) Miniatures
Dust Warfare

They are needed as an entry level base for a lot of gamers I hope this does not get worse.

There's nothing to worry about for the rest of the hobby. It's stronger than it's every been and growing. Just take a look at the successes on Kick Starter. I work professionally in the industry and I was three times busy last year than my best year so far and this year looks to be the same if not even better.

GW's melt down is (probably) coming from their policy of trying to preventing their customers from knowing that there is more to the hobby them Games Workshop (hence them calling themselves the "GW Hobby" and claiming there was no gaming in the US until they came here).

With expanding social media and internet programs like Kick starter, they can't keep that curtain closed anymore. Gamers are seeing (less expensive, friendlier) alternatives and liking them.

That article on TGN links to a German article which clearly states all that is purely rumor right now. It was badly reported and appeared to be fact if you just read the blurb there.

This isn't to say it won't all come true, but most of it is pure conjecture by people who really seem to want GW to crash and burn.

I'm still convinced that if it goes it will go fast and hard. They could recover but if they are still convinced that make more money per item sold vs allowing others to sell the product for them then it might not end well. They can pull further out of stores and try to push more orders to their website.

Fragmentation isn't good for the industry. Someone will need to step into that void. If a lot of people step into the void then we might be in trouble. Community keeps games stores open and if you can't build a store on 1 or 2 games then community is much harder to build. The GW/Magic shops will have a lot of trouble for a bit as the market settles on new industry leaders. I don't think Warmachine has it to be the top dog. It;s rather popular and a great game but it's not going to appeal to a lot of 40K players unless they have already been converted.

Not a rumor. Their a publicly held company and have to post reports.

Try this link. You can also follow links there directly to the report.

link

The rumor that GW is going to discontinue some of the armies it just that: a rumor. There are other rumors currently going around that Wood Elfs are going to hit in May, and Bretonnians later this year.

Damon.

Despite all the things we dislike them for, GW is still the gateway drug for many of us in this hobby, including myself.

Oh, is it that time of year again?

Oh, is it that time of year again?

Yep! The sky is falling!

…by Toutatis!

Growth markets aren't where you cut back. You cut back in Cash Cow markets first. The stores here in the U.S., with the exception of mall locations, seem to be low cost ventures with decent return.

Hopefully they will take a look at some of the Specialist stuff they have gotten rid of and realize that it gives them more market reach when they are in multiple scales. Great way to get new players into their traditional figures and genres too.

Being a contrarian, actually, I think that is very good news for the hobby, which just goes to show that you can't charge ridiculous prices for minis, and keep tweaking and re-releasing the same rules content over and over, forever.

Customers are very discriminating, and even more so in an economic downturn.

This probably means more companies have stepped into the void, and are offering comparable minis for less, and better rules too.

I agree with Mako11. GW could go belly up and The Hobby will not suffer because of it.

The majority opinion on various GW boards is that this "reorganization" is an attempt by GW to cut costs in the one area so far untouched by cost-cutting over the last few years--middle administrative costs, such as these separate entities operating on a country-by-country level, etc., and all of their associated overhead. Instead GW is re-centralizing all of the administrative overhead back in the UK, with a slight re-brand of the company and a new internet website/presence supposedly rolling out later this year.

Many of these same voices argue that much of GW's profits over last few years do not come from increased overall sales, but from cutting costs in operations/manufacturing and from increasing prices on those products they sell. This same argument then follows that GW has now hit the wall (or point on the curve) where they can no longer cut costs or increase prices, and therefore the lack of growth in sales has come home to roost AND also does not bode well for the future.

GW could go belly up

Without having read the report, I doubt this will happen. The company has too many assets of value, from stores to IP, for a complete failure to occur. If the situation is or becomes truly dire (a big if), some investor or investment group will likely see opportunity in place and buy in, with sufficient influence to effectively control board decisions. A restructuring will occur, upper heads will roll (and lower heads too), and then it will depend on whether those investors are good businessmen or not.
If talent leaves, talent will land somewhere solid. That's what happens with talent.
Paper pushers, however, could be in trouble.

If you regard the hobby interest pie for miniature gaming as stable, then a reduction in GW's share of the pie can only be good for other companies whose share of the pie will increase.

So it will not have an impact on my sales since I do not carry them anyway.
Nelson Time Portal
31 years in Business.

Would love to see GW tank and have to sell off it's assets to Competent investors who have their customers as a first priority.

I can't see GW going away, but I can see where they might get bought up and drop the miniature games in favor of video and boardgames. The IP, visual assets are the real value IMO.

GW's profits over last few years do not come from increased overall sales, but from cutting costs in operations/manufacturing and from increasing prices on those products they sell. This same argument then follows that GW has now hit the wall (or point on the curve) where they can no longer cut costs or increase prices

They are doing the same thing companies around the world have been doing the last several years. We just don't see GW buying up other smaller companies. Why should they?

BTW Rick P said last month in his magazine column that they coined the phrase "The GW Hobby" to lure investors to the company when it was going public. An interesting tidbit there. They were not trying to dominate the hobby, as has been thought. Made sense to me.

In the end, life is all about marketing and money.

"If you regard the hobby interest pie for miniature gaming as stable, then a reduction in GW's share of the pie can only be good for other companies whose share of the pie will increase."

That is only true if you regard it as stable. It is obviously not stable nor is anything else.

If GW goes belly up that does not translate into more market share for other companies inherently.

Certainly the people that got into other forms of gaming from GW will no longer have that gateway. While there are other things, like PP, they do not have the market penetration of GW.

While they might be able to gain some market share they will have to act quickly if GW were to go belly up.

However since the rumours of GWs imminent demise have been going on for as long as I've been playing 40K and had access to the internet I think that we can all rest assured that it isn't going to happen this time either.

Have to agree with Pictors on this one. IF GW goes under, some gamers would transition to other aspects of the hobby, but many would just move on to other things. IMHO, I think the hobby has hit or is nearing its saturation point in that there is so much product out there that getting a group of gamers to agree on anything to play, what to collect, etc., is getting tough to do. The same thing has happened to the comic book industry, sports cards, and it looks like the plastic modeling hobby is coming up soon. Too many products, not enough customers, high price points, and economic issues is not a good combination. These things go in cycles, so there's always a comeback lurking around the corner.

Even if GW did disappear, their games wouldn't. There seems to be a sub-set of GW game players who seem to think that without a GW to tell them what to do their current armies and rule sets will spontaneously combust or something.

This is what happens when you over pay your management, and alienate many of your customers.

Would love to see GW tank and have to sell off it's assets to Competent investors who have their customers as a first priority.

Who would that be then? Any company large enough to purchase GW would have the same obligations to shareholders as GW.

To my unscientific mind, a significant element of GW custom are teenage boys who, if GW did not exist, would not troop off to buy 28mm Westphalian fusileers, 15mm Parthians or whatever. An element may pick up on other sci fi or fantasy offerings if they are aware of them. And I'm not sure how many of those teenagers transition from GW to other, non GW games and lines.

One thing to consider in the lost of sales for GW may have nothing to do with their management, figures or prices.

Please note in several of the comments the mention of kickstarter and how well that has done for other companies. Remember, there is only so much consumer dollar that can be used for none essentials, and the money some of the kickstarters have taken has to be hitting the hobby over all, whether someone is running a large or small company.

Remember, there is only so much consumer dollar that can be used for none essentials, and the money some of the kickstarters have taken has to be hitting the hobby over all, whether someone is running a large or small company.

Very true, but one thing that Kickstarter has shown us is how VERY wrong we've been about the size of the hobby. There are vastly more gamers than we imagined and they are willing to spend a lot of money on the right offering. And as geekdom/nerdom or what ever you want to call it has become more and more mainstream, that size is continuing to grow.

FABET01 is correct. This is being well documented at ICv2 and other gaming industry news websites. It's amazing to watch. People who just read TMP and other miniature sites have no clue as to the larger gaming audience.

For example, CCGs have also made a huge resurgence the past couple of years, literally exploding at the seams. The super-hot new property is My Little Pony CCG. Can you believe it? They cannot print enough of it. IIRC they are on the 3rd printing of the base set.

The president of the company selling MLP CCG has said this of the the MLP game: "[The majority of sales are going to the hobby channel.] It's a gamer's game so I think it's fair to say that a majority of the purchasers are going to be 14-24 year old guys, just like with most games," Irwin said.

Guess what demographic Games Workshop caters to? Hmmm…. The same demo as M:TG, Pokemon, YGO, and My Little Pony. Plus many other video and board games.

Just another little piece of a larger gaming puzzle that GW is clueless about. The money that 14-24 year olds would have spent on a Space Marine army is going into My Little Pony.

BTW the sale of GW-based board games by Fantasy Flight Games is also going nuts. Just try to find a copy of Warhammer Disk Wars.

GW is just missing the boat and has no clue what to do. So they cut costs. Sad really. They could have been leading the way, making money hands over fist, but that would mean a return to their 1980s approach the the gaming hobby. They have been too scared to do that. So they have lost out.

I believe the one thing, besides kickstarter that is helping the sales of other games is the amount of youtube channels dedicated to teaching and instructing people on the games are played.

Whereas, GW seems to all they can to stop this sort of advertising in the name of protecting IP.

Very right, Joel. IMO GW is run by morons stuck in 1990.

I believe the one thing, besides kickstarter that is helping the sales of other games is the amount of youtube channels dedicated to teaching and instructing people on the games are played.

Whereas, GW seems to all they can to stop this sort of advertising in the name of protecting IP.

But there seem to be plenty of Youtube channels devoted to the Warhammers?

Yes, there are channels devoted to Warhammer like Beast of War and Miniature Wargaming, but it does take long for them to talk about the C&D letters that they get because they show warhammer products.

Hobby stops like channels like Geek and Sunday and others game playing channels, as well as the companies that produce those games because the generate sales. GW, seems, (and this is only an observation) want to fight against the independents that show and demonstrate their products.

Basically, two of my sons and their wives, as well as my daughter and son and law look for and watch the channels that deal with board and other miniature games, often purchasing what they see demonstrated.

"But there seem to be plenty of Youtube channels devoted to the Warhammers?"

You are correct, but IF GW were to go belly up, what happens to the You Tube channels then?

The old saying of "Being too big to fail," does not apply here. GW has been making adjustments to look after their bottom line (Normal thing to do). However, the issue of pricing customers or potential customers out of the market does not help. People groan about the prices, but obviously there are still folks buying the minis/books/ starter sets.

If GW goes away, it will not be overnight. There are other companies out there and they will observe GW's brilliant moves and not so brilliant moves and learn from them.

Basically, two of my sons and their wives, as well as my daughter and son and law look for and watch the channels that deal with board and other miniature games, often purchasing what they see demonstrated.

Yeah, Youtube is what got me interested in the Twofatlardies games and Gruntz… and a bunch of boardgames through Boardgames With Scott and The Dice Tower.

I had no idea that GW had sent a C&D to Beasts of War. I don't watch them much but geez! I'd see them as doing GW free advertising by talking up their games.
They seem to have stopped covering GW stuff altogether… better for Mantic and Infinity I guess.

Its not just youtube channels that get the C&D treatment. Podcasts, forums and blogs also get the "BanHammer" bought down on them.

All of them simply there doing free advertising and whipping fans into a frenzy for new releases. GW does NOT like this.

I only purchased GW terrain because of the Beasts of War reviews of same. Geez.

I wouldn't say that Kickstarter has shown the hobby to be larger than thought at all. It just shows that people are willing to invest into getting something new. Take the Reaper Bones Kickstarter. Just divide the total dollars pledged by the average dollars or number of investors and you will see that the number is a lot smaller than you would think.

I submit that pricing isn't necessarily the problem with GW. Value and its perception is. I didn't perceive Finecast as being better and neither did the majority of buyers. My understanding is that it is improved now or they have a different material? Either way, I know that plastics and resins are cheaper to produce figures with in the long run. Metal costs more and we can see its cost on the commodities markets.

I am for MORE companies in the hobby realm. And actually, I am for MORE retailers too. Online direct sales has really hurt the retail community. Local hobby stores are dying out or have died out, which is a real shame.

I think one of the things that bugs me the most about GW has been how petty some of the things they do seem. I know they are a business and all that, but even taking that into account, it just seems like they become more of a coy maiden every year. For example:

- White Dwarf used to be a hobbyist magazine, but sometime in the 90's, all references to non-GW IP were eliminated.

- The GW Forums were closed, possibly because of negative feedback from customers, but more likely just because they didn't want to pay an IT or PR guy to work the forums.

- Black Gobbo, one of the finest hobby e-zines in years and a great marketing product from GW-US, was suddenly disbanded, since there's no profit in giving away all those great articles on painting and conversion for free. Oh, wait -- they didn't end up anywhere else for popular consumption, so even the act of taking down those articles didn't profit the Mothership in any way.

- Repeated snubs to the Epic, Warmaster, and other communities who were crammed under the Specialist Games umbrella, to include lack of support, severe price increases (I remember one blister pack going from $10 USD to $22 USD), disappearing rules, "shunning" of SG games in GW B&M stores, etc.

- Constant, unnecessary changes to rules in order to make existing models obsolete and force players to buy new stuff.

- The Orwellian marketing of things like Finecast. GW kept saying that Finecast figs were going to be better quality and better prices for gamers, when exactly the opposite is true. Pure bull-pucky. It's like the surgeon telling the lobotomy patient that this is for his own good.

- Price increases that far outstrip the cost of inflation by orders of magnitude.

- Carpet-bombing hobbyist sites with C&D letters, when those sites are trying to showcase GW products (whiskey tango foxtrot??). The message seems to be that we're only allowed to enjoy GW products through their choices of venue.

It's things like these that have left a bad taste in my mouth over the past decade or so. I could name more examples, but these are a good sampling of ways in which GW more resembles a crack dealer than a company trying to involve people in a fun hobby. It's possibly a natural result of the fact that the board of directors is comprised entirely of lawyers and bankers, with not a gamer among them.

CCGs have also made a huge resurgence the past couple of years, literally exploding at the seams

Maybe they need better glue.

But yes, maybe The Hobby is just slightly less fashionable with young men aged whatever to whatever. Or maybe this is just one data point.

'Lawyers and bankers': common rhyming slang.

Uh… huh? I don't get your point, Mr. Martini. Did I miss something?

You're a yank, Mr 98; I wouldn't expect you to get my point.

Well, for whatever it's worth my Significantly Better Half's first career was in the *British* stock market (merchant shipping and banking) and her reaction to a 25% drop in stock value was an unceremonious "sell it all at once if you want to save any of your investment."

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Games Workshop appears, at least on the surface, to be a company that has no respect for their competitors, customers, staff, retailers, or product. Their corporate logo could be an upraised middle finger.

They've done this for much of their history and they haven't gone under yet. Whatever this is, I doubt it will end them.