"Disabled Loo" Topic

A change to our usual thread-topics I'll admit.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the requirements for a wargames shop that will be hosting club nights in respect of providing access to facilities for the disabled.

Premises in Scotland. Reconfigured existing retail unit.

Comments from those familiar with the rules and regulations would be appreciated.

Not sure shops have any obligation to provide any sort of toilet.
Otherwise they all would?

No shop I ever managed was obliged to offer a WC

Did any of them host club-nights or social events Angel B?

Level access, into the shop and all areas, public and staff.
Circulation areas 1600mm, so wheel chairs can pass each other.
Doors 800mm
Accessible toilet (NOT disabled loo) 2.2 x 1.8m and should be fitted with a DOM pack.
But all of the above is subject to space restrictions and the discretion of the Designer, as long as you are seen to be making the effort you'll be okay. I usually work on 800mm as the very minimum for wheel chair access, 1600mm where the chair needs to turn.
Contact your local Building Control Officer they will be able to advise you better on local and national regs, much better than taking the word of some anonymous bloke off the internet.

Much appreciated Chocolate.

So if a shop was being newly fitted out, and there was currently no loo on the ground floor would there be no requirement to add one legally in your interpretation?

I think it's only restaurants that have an obligation to provide loos. Unless you're providing food and drink you're probably okay. Ring your council planning office to check in case you're in a funny category. They'll also give you a more accurate answer.

In Scotland you are required to make 'reasonable adjustments' to ensure the premises are accessible to the disabled.
The relevant law also states that the disabled shouldn't be treated less favourably (or words to that effect) to the able bodied, so if you had a toilet for the able bodied you might have to take steps to make it as usable as was reasonably possible for a disabled person.

Thanks both.

And without mentioning or picking on games Workshop don't recall many of them providing such facilities

Good luck with the shop. Where in AScotland you located??

Glasgow. Not my shop. Not involved commercially. Not even open for a couple of weeks yet!

Good point wrt GW.

Unfortunately I wouldn't use GW as your bench mark…certainly up until fairly recently they were happy to sell knives and solvent based glues in their Dundee store to under age children!

'happy to sell knives and solvent based glues in their Dundee store to under age children!' Yeah but opens up a whole new debate regarding PC gone mad (hate that expression!!!) which is not worthwhile going into here.

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I asked a wargaming mate with a bit of experience of organising small events… the best he could offer was "If its a GW venue, they'll need a WC for parents when they see the prices". Not overly helpful and I think he was having a bad day. I couldn't possibly comment

Midpoint -
Usually allow for a staff toilet only as you are not a restaurant or bar.
Assume that small premises so one unisex toilet will be enough this will cover up to 15 staff.
Regulations say you cant discriminate against disabled so toilet should be wheelchair accessible, but
If the shop is small enough then this may not be appropriate and your building control officer will be able to guide you on what is appropriate.
Even if you are not doing warrantable works, stuff that requires a building warrant, the building control officers will give assistance.

John

I agree Iain I just mentioned it to illustrate that GW cannot be seen as a legal guide :D

I think the Disability Discrimination Act requires reasonable adjustments rather than insisting you have to have a disabled loo.

As others have said many shops don't provide one…of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't provide one…

Access to properly accessible loos is a huge issue for people with disabilities (I work in this area) and can often be critical in deciding where to go. For an example of a really standard of accessible loo have a look here…
link

…you can tell its a bit of a passion… I really should get out more :)

I think the Disability Discrimination Act requires reasonable adjustments rather than insisting you have to have a disabled loo.

As others have said many shops don't provide one…of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't provide one…

Access to properly accessible loos is a huge issue for people with disabilities (I work in this area) and can often be critical in deciding where to go. For an example of a really standard of accessible loo have a look here…
link

…you can tell its a bit of a passion… I really should get out more :)

AlistairJ,

The DDA is a good start.
Unfortunately the Scottish Building Regulations use the term "reasonable adjustments" which, in an existing building, can be bent to breaking point if you are willing to argue your case.
The size of the building is the determining factor, you can get away with murder in a small building as fully compliant toilets, corridors etc will eat up a fair amount of space. If it is becoming too much, reducing sales / floor areas badly you will find that "reasonable adjustments" can become ignore as much as possible.
Not fair for a disabled person but true all the same.

Sorry, in answer to the original post holding a club night is exactly the same as having customers in the premises.
Disabled requirements will not change under the building regulations as the use of the building has not changed by having a club night.
Disabled toilet requirements are as previous stated above.
Disabled access will depend on whether the shop front is being altered – you should not be asked to upgrade the existing shop front unless you are changing it.
Do you have an agent for the project and have you spoken to the local authority?
A quick phone call will put your mind at rest regarding the requirements of the building regulations.
Unfortunately it is a bit of a weird science, different building officers can have different opinions on some issues but the larger issues should be standard.

"Unfortunately I wouldn't use GW as your bench mark…certainly up until fairly recently they were happy to sell knives and solvent based glues in their Dundee store to under age children!"

Every GW I've ever been in has had a no under 18 policy on knives and solvent glue sales for years, probably over a decade.

The Dundee store were still doing it a couple of years ago…of course it may have been a one off or a 'rogue' staff member!

'no under 18 policy on knives and solvent glue' Yeah so all young wargamers\modellers are stigmatized as being glue sniffing knife weilding neds. How many of us would that have applied to when we tried to purchase some glue to make our first Airfix model!!!! GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Another possibility might be to come to an arrangement with a nearby location which already has an accessible bathroom by which gamers who need it get to use it?

Nearby pub? Shopping centre? Something like that. It doesn't have to be actually you that provides the accommodation, it just has to be available.

"you can get away with murder in a small building"

See, and people saying stuff like this is why this is an emotive issue. When "It's not practical" has turned out to mean "we couldn't be bothered" the first few times, it becomes merely a formality exchange before you get into the legal letters. And then for people who it really isn't practical, having the conversation to explain that gets expensive.

People should also probably bear in mind that dismissive "oh that's not practical" type responses count as their being approached with an opportunity to resolve the matter in an informal way and the manner of that response can be taken into account when awarding the costs for any possible subsequent mediation and litigation stages.

You could always get one of these:

If you get any strange looks, you can always pass it off as Doctor Who's new TARDIS…. ;-)

But its not bigger on the inside!