"3d printers and miniatures" Topic

I was thinking about 3d printers, and how they may revolutionize the design end of making miniatures. I noticed some 20mm miniatures that I was painting were out of proportion and in stiff odd-looking poses. If you took multiple digital photos of a re-enactor (or model) in full uniform from multiple angles in the pose we would like, then printed it in a 3d printer, then, in theory, you could get a perfectly proportioned, very life-like, and accurately uniformed miniature master to cast from. All of our minis made in this way could be superior to anything being cast now. It would look wonderful on the tabletop. Do you think this will happen as the 3d printing technology improves?

All of our minis made in this way could be superior to anything being cast now.

The quality and level of resolution are not yet good enough.

The quality and level of resolution are not yet good enough.

It can be if you use the better gear.
Easily.
However for the most part it is not, not even close.

But, who would spend £150.00 GBP on a 28mm figure for a top end printed figure.
Also, perfectly proportioned would mean bayonets so thin they would snap.
Figures now are chunky so they stand up to the rigours of being pushed around a table top.
Etc etc.

I talked to someone who has used a 3d printer, and said the same thing. I was thinking that the technology level and detail would improve with each generation of 3d machines, so, I was imagining this happening in the near future.

so, I was imagining this happening in the near future.

Depends what you mean by "the near future". I don't think 3D printers are covered by Moore's Law.

I was looking at one in Staples today. £999.00 GBP, plus £49.00 GBP for each cartridge. Its relatively easy to use in the home, but the true quality is far off the current level of sculpting and casting, i.e. although the detail and shape was quite good, it looked like it was made from miniature lego, with roughly 0.25mm steps where it was made up in bands.

Even then, the true cost per figure is still currently more than the cost that you can buy them for – miniature wargames figures are really incredibly cheap, and sold far below their true value.

As AB says, it can be done, but that is on machines costing upwards of £40,000.00 GBP, not £400.00 GBP, and generally printed items that work out at £100.00 GBP-300 each…

Do you think this will happen as the 3d printing technology improves?

Of course, same way as we went from colour printing bureaus to affordable colour laser printers in the home. You can print your own leaflets and brochures at home, but the quality is still far inferior to the quality of proper printing. It took about 10-20 years for that to happen (I saw colour bureaus pop up in about 1995). And I would anticipate this technology will take at least as long to be able to surpass the current commercially available alternative.

Near future? Yes, but a decade or so, not next year.

Sangennaru just recently modelled some 15mm robots and printed them up at Shapeways, they came up very nice, especially considering the scale.

link

Left : Metal miniature, right: 3d-printed robot

Do you know how much it cost for one of those to be printed?

Edit: 30-40c each, roughly comparable with the lower end of the current 15mm market rate.

Just to add to Geoff's last point, the pricing of the technology will also remain at a higher level, as there won't be the same level of demand as for something like a regular printer for example. A few homes may buy one for hobby purposes, or maybe for work or fun, but they won't be sold to every household in the country. I'd imagine the pricing will come down slowly and remain at a reasonable level, but the capabilities of the entry level machines will slowly increase.

What you need to figure when considering it for home use is:

1. Cost of machine

2. Cost of consumables

3. True cost of printing

Even if the cost of the machine comes down to £500.00 GBP, that's an awful lot of figures you need to print (not to mention issues with resolving down time, blocked nozzles, jams – ever tried to extract a sheet of paper from an inkjet printer that has got itself jammed in the rollers??) before you get your money's worth. Only a few hardcore gamers will be able to make that truly cost effective.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it won't happen, eventually, probably. I've come from a graphic design background that saw manual pasteup artwork move to design and artwork on computer and conventional repro filmwork move to CTP and digital print. My first computer was a Commodore 64 that loaded programs from cassette. I've seen technological advances, but we are still a long way off Star Trek replicators (and even those need a starship to run them). ;-)

C64??? Nah. Speccy FTW!

Theres a bloke in the US selling 28mm tanks and heavy artillery pieces using one of these printers. The quality & detail is really good.

C64??? Nah. Speccy FTW!

I was advanced. Friend had the Spectrum. I also had one of the original Amiga 1000s. 256k of memory, with an additional (massive) 256k memory block in the front.

But the highlight has to be working for the Ministry of Agriculture – our very first database of egg farmers was producing on a ZX81, 16k of memory with an extra 16k memory block :-)

What gets me is, what will my 5 year old son see when he is my age?

I would have said that one of the advantages will be the ability to print things that people don't sell. I don't have the skill to sculpt a perfectly aligned model tank, but I could design one in a 3d drawing program.

Therefore if I wanted something nobody else makes, then I could invest the time and print them.

Hopefully the cost and quality for hobby machines will be there in the next ten years or so and I can get to enjoy them. Being able to 3d scan things in some way would be the ultimate….i.e scan a full size item and the print in a model scale :)

Then all you need to do is find a scanner big enough to drive a Tiger tank through.

Oh, and a Tiger tank :-)

Actually, looking at the other photos, you can see the surface quality:

What about for terrain….. buildings have far fewer details to worry about. I would love to be able to easily print a ton of unique buildings.

Then your material cost goes up. Most printing is done by a combination of time to print, and volume of printing material used. Quality wise its probably fine, and convenience wise you could certainly get that variation easily, but whether it is cost viable, you'd need to price it up and see.

Yes.

In the interim, for larger, flatter surfaces, like on vehicles, people use them now, and just sand off the ridges, and/or fill them with primer spray.

I don't really like them for figs, but they'll get the resolution improved, eventually, for home use.

Some machines already have, but they're very expensive, so best used for making prototypes.

"A few homes may buy one for hobby purposes, or maybe for work or fun, but they won't be sold to every household in the country."

This is what people said about personal computers too.

I bet it is just as wrong of an assumption. There will be a variety of tools* that you can download onto your printer and then print when you need them, use them until they break and then throw them away.

Just because we don't know the applications doesn't mean that they won't come into being.

This technology will be used to print miniatures, miniature companies will be selling files instead of figures in the future and I bet it will happen sooner than people think. I think 3 years might be too short but 20 years is probably way too long.

* like a stapler or a hole punch.

I can see the industry going the way that Spartan Games has been using 3d printing way before we all print our figures, if ever.

Lets face it, I don't think that in the next 20 years or so, we will get an sub 1000$ 3d printer with the level of detail required to beat lead or plastic minis and come out cheaper in the end once we factor in consumables. On the other hand, using 30k$ 3d printers to print masters with sub .1mm detail, I can see that becoming more popular to the point that it might replace human sculptors all together in some shops.

In 2006 people were predicting that there would never be 28mm hard plastic historical figures. In 2008 there were.

I no longer make predictions more then 5 years in the future. Things change too quickly now.

The potential is enormous.

Print on demand on quality machines should be pretty good, though 3D printing does not do volume, so it doesn't matter if you print one grenadier or a thousand, they will cost the same.

Home printers are currently still in the 8-pins matrix phase, quality and speed are poor at the moment and the software you use makes a huge difference so don't skimp on that or the results will not be what you might expect.

I would wait a few years and ask again.

Interesting discussion – In Model Railway hobby people at home are already using 3d printers to make very good to excellent wagons and locos that are not currently being produced by the main manufacturers. And they are not producing one wagon for order they are producing 100 plus wagons to order etc. There is hope for wargaming if you want to go down that route…..

According to the Office Of National Statistics, as of 2012 wonly 67% of adults in the UK use a computer on a daily basis, and there are still 5.2 million households without internet access.

Railway modellers are used to paying much higher prices, so the cost of print on demand would seem viable. Are you really willing to pay £20.00 GBP+ for a 15mm tank when the current market ranges around £5.00 GBP-8?

(if you are, let me know and we can put the prices up) :-)

When this technology really does become a household items, wargames companies will cease to exist, same as reprographics companies are no longer around for making print work.

"Theres a bloke in the US selling 28mm tanks and heavy artillery pieces using one of these printers. The quality & detail is really good."

If it's who I think this is I've been to his workplace and the printers he has range from $12,000 USD-$75,000, so they're not the ones that you buy at the local office store. The higher end printer can do some amazing things, but (and this can't be emphasized enough) you need someone with really good 3D modeling skills.

I run a series of computer labs and we have a Projet 160 (around $21,000 USD) and I have someone on my staff who has worked in the electronic gaming industry who has been able to print some Star Trek models with very good detail. Again, however, you need someone who not only knows how to design in 3D, but what to look for in terms of designing "supports" so the models don't cave in, deconstructing models into parts so they will print correctly and can then be assembled, etc. Its not as easy as everyone portrays.

This will change in the future as newer models continue to add some great features. Right now most color 3D printers need to be printed in layers, so you have to design your colors so that they're horizontal in nature, but some of the models coming out this year will be full all around color. Also, crushed brass, lead, copper, etc., will be able to be used as printing mediums, which will open up some interesting avenues for the game industry.

I'm surprised no one's designed a cleanup mode feature for their printers, to get rid of the striations.

Seems like an easy thing to do.

I'd imagine if u wanted mass chariots, and you sourced your crew and horses elsewhere, this option may be attractive, if all parts printed "flat".

"A few homes may buy one for hobby purposes, or maybe for work or fun, but they won't be sold to every household in the country."

This is what people said about personal computers too.

I bet it is just as wrong of an assumption. There will be a variety of tools* that you can download onto your printer and then print when you need them, use them until they break and then throw them away.

But there's a massive difference between the two. Someone might buy a PC so they can check their emails, browse TMP, play Angry Birds or just to use Word to write a letter. A 3D printer isn't as multi-use, and needs a lot more knowledge to know how to use it.

Even if you can download the files directly to print, how often do you need a new stapler or hole punch? How many disposable daily items do we all use which a 3D printer is going to produce, and which would be cheaper than going to the local store?

The level of demand required simply won't be there for 3D printers, so the cost of them will remain at a higher level. It's then up to the individual to decide whether they see that level as value for money or not.

Minairons Miniatures and Blitzkrieg Miniatueres make 3d printed masters based on CAD designs, and then make their kits and molds out of them.

I came here to start a new topic. Thankfully, I can just add my thoughts here… My Primer on 3D Printing.

link

Bottom line: Go to the pros with the commercial grade machines. Using hobby-level printers or discount service bureaus will get your object in your hand, but you often get what you pay for.

Best,
JBR

"Even if you can download the files directly to print, how often do you need a new stapler or hole punch? How many disposable daily items do we all use which a 3D printer is going to produce, and which would be cheaper than going to the local store?"

There are probably a lot of things around the house like this and since they would probably break once in a while they would need to be reprinted.

Without affordable home computers no one would have thought of browsing TMP or checking their emails. Then it became almost essential to have one.

Same thing. Supply creates its own demand.

To add to that look at smart phones. I don't know that many people were demanding a computer that fit in their pocket but now that they are available a lot of people "need" them.

The stuff you can do with a cell phone now was almost inconceivable 10 years ago.

Then again, things we took for given 20 years ago still haven't happened…

As previously stated, Minairons does 3d printing scanning of their 3d printed masters and makes molds for their production.
Can u start a cottage business like this?
Miniature United

Part Deux of my 3D production primer is up… "The File."

link

Best,
JBR

5th year that we've been using 3d prints for wargames items was non the 13th Jan just gone….

All of our minis made in this way could be superior to anything being cast now. It would look wonderful on the tabletop. Do you think this will happen as the 3d printing technology improves?

The quality of the pose remains reliant on the skill of the sculptor, digital or physical.

Its probable that you will see more unrealistic, stiff poses from 3d artists than from traditional sculptors.

I'm surprised no one's designed a cleanup mode feature for their printers, to get rid of the striations.

Seems like an easy thing to do.

They have – its called a human! :-)

We found that with traditional graphic design for leaflets, brochures, etc. Designers started working to "what can the computer do", rather than "what do I want, and how can I make the computer do that". The result was a boring period of graphic design where every brochure looked like it had been designed on a computer, within the stock limitations of the computer.

It took a few years for designers to learn how to design, then use the computer rather than jump straight on and be restricted by the limitations of the software.

We then went through a phase of "oh, we don't need to employ a designer, you can use a computer, you can do our corporate brochure….". God, that was a horrible period.

Part Deux of my 3D production primer is up…

Interesting stuff, but my god that font/colour combination is harsh on the eyes.

I don't think the comon extrusion type printer are suitable for figures but could make nice alien corridors. there was a kickstarter for a better system using a modified data projector and tank of liquid polymer/resin with forming plate to do similar to a more expensive commercial scanning laser and resin printer system.

"Interesting stuff, but my god that font/colour combination is harsh on the eyes."

My apologies, sir. I can make PDFs later in a more friendly format, and post links.

Best,
JBR

Hmmmm I am never quite sure what people are trying to say or imply when the subject of 3D printers comes along. Are they trying to say that sculptors will be out of a job or that figure manufacturers will be put out of business or that sculptors and manufacturers better start charging less. I think that either of these two scenarios would be devastating for the hobby. I also think that if you look at this closely it will be a long time before 3D printers will be as effective both in quality of sculpt and price than the manufactured figures you can get today. Is it not also the case that when ever this subject comes up with the connection to scanning figures that the sculptor or person he has sold the rights to, and who is producing the figures holds the artistic copyright so it would not be legal never mind ethical to take a figure scan it and produce an army of miniatures from it. Just a few thought's on the subject.

With regards to using laser scanners to feed the CAD design into a computer, to print on a 3-D printer… It's been done already. Jeff Dunham, a ventriloquist comedian, sculpted at least one of his dummies, out of clay, scanned it with a 3-D laser scanner, then fed that into a 3-D printer, which produced the lightweight plastic face of his puppet, Achmed Jr. There was a video of it either on the Web, or on disc.

I suspect that in the future, there will be sculptors, like we have today, making wargaming mini's out of greenstuff/epoxy, which will be laser-scanned into a 3-D CAD program which will then print them out in a 3-D printer, a' la' Jeff Dunham's puppet, Achmed Jr. We will also see CAD sculptors producing CAD files which can be printed into physical, 3-D mini's. Both techniques are viable.

I own a couple of WW I 1/144 airplane models, not produced outside of CAD files, printed by Shapeways. They are rough, but I plan on smoothing their surfaces a bit, with a few applications of Pledge Floor Polish with Future Shine. It won't smooth it out completely, but it will help quite a bit.

The Shapeways airplanes are ridiculously lightweight, easy to paint, and when mounted on vertical dowels, for use in Red Baron games, they'll work better than the metal models we currently use -- the sticks won't shift with their miniscule weight! The less detailed 3-D printers are usable, now, for certain applications in gaming. Cheers!

Part Three of my 3D Primer: Picking the right sculptor.

link

Best,
JBR

I don't think the 3d printer will put artists and sculptors out of work in the near future. I also don't think home 3d printers will be cost effective for miniature war games figures in the near future. I would imagine that expensive 3d printer companies will rent out time to artists, renderers, and miniatures companies to make the model that the molds will be made from. Then the molds will be cast and the usual supply miniatures supply chain will be used to sell the product to the customer. In 10-20 years that process may change as the price of 3d printers comes down. In that case, the whole industry may change to the same one used currently where paper models, houses and rules are printed at home on the customer's printer from files bought on the internet from the company or artist. i was also thinking you could make 3d models to cast from 2d photographs or paintings created during that period or conflict, if you had a talented computer artist, eventually.

My last part of my 3D Production Primer. Molding.

link

Best,
JBR

If you own the machine, the cost of consumables per print is less than the MSRP of the figure.

High res machine still aren't cheap enough yet, but are getting close. Things like the B9 creator are bringing high res into the serious hobbyist market.

Are they trying to say that sculptors will be out of a job or that figure manufacturers will be put out of business or that sculptors and manufacturers better start charging less.

The industry will change, radically, when this technology finally cross the price/quality threshold. Physical sculptors may not be required. They will be replaced by CAD designers working in software that permits natural as well as mechnical shapes – we have that already.

Time is the big factor. How quickly can a CAD artist produce a 3D file, compared to how long a traditional artist takes to sculpt one. Compare fine art with photography. Why paint a photo-realistic image these days, which takes a lot longer (and thus costs more) if you can simply take a photo?

And if the technology can work on the desktop, at a quality that exceeds current traditional moulding/casting techniques, at a unit price that is equal or lower to the current cost of moulding/casting, then yes, there will be no need for the manufacturers.

In the short term, you are likely to see a considerable increase in prices, as sculptors and manufacturers try to balance costs against mass production of the bread and butter items, i.e. it is the massed sales of standard items that funds the more esoteric items. Without the bulk sales generating the surplus the oddities become unviable, or have to sell at their true value (and I'm not sure you want to pay £250.00 GBP/tank)

I also think that if you look at this closely it will be a long time before 3D printers will be as effective both in quality of sculpt and price than the manufactured figures you can get today.

Yes, but in the foreseeable future. I'm still estimating about 20 years before that crossover is reached. Home machines are really still in the novelty stage, but every couple of years or so they refine again. The question will be whether there is really demand to see them take off like, say, the colour laser printer, or they will remain a dust-gathering novelty.

Is it not also the case that when ever this subject comes up with the connection to scanning figures that the sculptor or person he has sold the rights to, and who is producing the figures holds the artistic copyright so it would not be legal never mind ethical to take a figure scan it and produce an army of miniatures from it.

Multiple ownership in copyright is a complex subject, and a topic for one of my masters papers. It can depend on a variety of factors, but essentially yes, you may need permission of the IP owner to be able to scan an item, and scanning without permission could constitute a breach, the penalties for which could include a fine, surrender of the produced items and/or destruction.

And regarding Pictor's defining argument, are you really going to buy a $1,000 USD (or even $500 USD) printer to print a hole punch that you can buy for $2.50 USD…