kinsnevatt | 16 Jan 2014 12:06 p.m. PST |
Hi, How do you model the ropes and tackle lines that would tie the horses and limbers together? Sorry if I have not used the correct terms, I'm not really sure on what they are actually called! I just want the model to look a bit more realistic and not just have horses tied to imaginary ropes. Cheers, Chris |
Empires at War | 16 Jan 2014 12:22 p.m. PST |
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Widowson | 16 Jan 2014 12:37 p.m. PST |
Go to a wooden ship modeling site and find waxed threads in different thicknesses, which ship modelers use for rigging lines. I've found these work great for horse team traces. |
Chokidar | 16 Jan 2014 12:39 p.m. PST |
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BelgianRay | 16 Jan 2014 1:41 p.m. PST |
Get some speaker wire. Trim and get the inside conducters. Twist them so you get a nice rope profile. Prime. Cut at desire lenght. Paint the "ropes". You can easaly glue them and put them in the desired position, or even solder them. Easy to do, easy to position and attach, cheap and robust. |
Brechtel198 | 16 Jan 2014 1:58 p.m. PST |
You can also use thin string and put some Elmer's white glue on the tips of your thumb and forefinger and run the string through it. It makes the string semi-rigid and also thins it for use. I have used this method for years and it works quite well. B |
kinsnevatt | 16 Jan 2014 2:20 p.m. PST |
Thanks everyone for your responses. I think I will go for the MANTUA MODELS BEIGE HEMP RIGGING ROPE. What size would you recommend for a 28 mm limber team? Cheers Chris |
historygamer | 16 Jan 2014 4:38 p.m. PST |
I think you may be a bit off the mark. Rope would not usually be found on such a rig, as it would hurt the animal. Leather was the preferred way to rig a team to a wagon. link |
number4 | 16 Jan 2014 5:46 p.m. PST |
Basically everything ON the animal is leather, while rope or a combination of rope, leather strap or chain is used to link horses to each other and the limber itself: "The draught harness consisted of traces and breaching straps. The traces transmitted the tractive effort of the horse to the vehicle being drawn via the swingle trees. The traces were made of four strand hemp rope, furnished with rope loops at their terminals which looped onto the swingle trees. The traces were supported by a leather loop at the D buckle connecting the wither strap to the breaching strap.
Around the horse passed two large pieces of leather, the breaching strap and wither strap. These acted as the break for the gun. The wither strap, connected to the breaching strap via large D buckles, held up by a loin strap, which passed over the hind quarters of the horse, and the through the crupper. The wither strap was a single length of leather which passed around the front of the horse, through the iron rings on the neck collar and secured at each end to the breaching strap. The wither strap was provided with leather tubes to take the traces where they passed below the saddle, and over the stirrup leathers and girth of the near side horse. A flank strap supported both the traces and wither strap. A double or single loin strap passed over the horses' rump. The off side horse had a back strap which connected the top of the neck collar, passing to the flank strap, and thence the crupper at the loin strap. On the near side horse, this strap passed to the front of the riding saddle. The leading and centre horses did not have the breaching strap or loin strap. The traces terminated in iron hooks with connected to the wither strap rings on the proceeding horses neck collar."
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historygamer | 16 Jan 2014 6:47 p.m. PST |
What period exactly are we talking about, as they didn't have limbers like this in the Rev War period, and that is where I am seeing this post? |
Mserafin | 16 Jan 2014 7:12 p.m. PST |
they didn't have limbers like this in the Rev War period, and that is where I am seeing this post? It's also posted to 18th and 19th century boards, Naps, ACW, and early 20th Century. The discussion suggests there may have been developments in this period that would make greater specificity useful. Great pix, number4. |
kinsnevatt | 16 Jan 2014 10:46 p.m. PST |
Thanks number 4 for all the information. Mserafin, my reason for posting on the different boards was that I thought that others may have tried to model ropes on their limbers, whether that be Napoleonic, acw, 19th century etc. I was unaware that they didn't use them in the American revolution. I'm looking to do this on Napoleonic and ww1 miniatures. Thanks to you all for your posts and interest. Chris |
11th ACR | 16 Jan 2014 11:42 p.m. PST |
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OSchmidt | 17 Jan 2014 5:42 a.m. PST |
There's something called "thread." It's sold at any A.C. Moore, Craft store, sewing shop, Walmart or the like. It'll also be a lot cheaper. Always amazed at people who can't fart without a web-site. |
Empires at War | 17 Jan 2014 5:51 a.m. PST |
I used .5mm with my Perry Russian limbers as it seems to be the same scale as the rope sections moulded onto the horses. |
John Miller | 17 Jan 2014 2:40 p.m. PST |
Off the subject some what but does anyone know the correct color concerning the French for the large collar around the horses neck, I believe they were made of wood and leather with brass fittings and was under the impression that they were the usual French green but now I am not so sure? Thanks, John Miller |
von Winterfeldt | 18 Jan 2014 5:47 a.m. PST |
They could be red or gray as well, depending from what time period, see for example the painting by Lejeune about Marengo, there the horse collar is red. |
deadhead | 18 Jan 2014 6:14 a.m. PST |
The French wooden C shaped effort was indeed French Artillery green whatever that really was. If you mix sixty parts ochre with one of black I suspect it is still pretty yellowish
.then it will fade fast as well. The leather "cushion" ring was black as were all the metal fittings, but a bit of rust will surely have crept in. |
TKindred | 18 Jan 2014 9:20 a.m. PST |
Regarding that ACW gun & team, 2 points: 1.) The teams are using Dragoon blankets, blue w/orange stripes. Regs called for Scarlet blankets w/black or dark blue stripes. However, once on campaign, you use what's available. Having said that, like as not there weren't many Dragoon blankets in stock anywhere by the time the war started. There's a number of references to CS artillery using saddle blankets made from moss. 2.) VERY unlikely to ever see riders on the limbers while on campaign, or during battle. Field artillerymen walked/trotted alongside the teams. Quite often, knapsacks & blanket rolls would be strapped to the limber and caissons, leaving no room for passengers anyway. The practice was so widespread that by 1864 federal artillery officers were ordered to ensure that baggage was only placed upon the chest and foot rests and NOT to be applying pressure to the limber pole, as it created extra strain on the horses. The ACW limber chests had a copper lid. On the top of this was strapped a white paulin designed to cover the gun while in park. More often as not, the paulin was stretched over the limber pole and used as a shelter for the crew. |
John Miller | 18 Jan 2014 5:02 p.m. PST |
von Winterfeldt & deadhead: Thank you both for the assistance. John Miller |
Musketier | 20 Jan 2014 3:53 a.m. PST |
"Field artillerymen walked/trotted alongside the teams." So none of that "galloping up" that painters and manufacturers seem so fond of? Crewmen on foot couldn't keep up with galloping horses surely? |
TKindred | 20 Jan 2014 11:35 a.m. PST |
There was really no place for them to ride, as the limbers and Caissons usually had the men's knapsacks attached to them. Plus, anyone riding on a limber chest at anything more than a walk would likely have discs blown, if not vertebra fractured. There were no springs on the axles. Actual galloping to a position would be a rare thing. The men would walk along with the guns and caissons while on the march, and moving into position prior to action. They could easily run for whatever short distance a battery had to move to retire, or to advance. The teams, even with 6 horses, weren't moving as fast as cavalry due to the weight they were harnessed to. Besides, if the guns were to advance, the battery commander would send a guide (mounted, normally) to the spot he wished the battery to form on, while the guns were being limbered. That took a small bit of time, though faster than we think. They'd then advance, and have to wheel about to unlimber, then bring the teams to the rear and wheel about again. That all took time, enough so that the crew on foot could advance to the new position. Horse artillery, of course, had all the crew mounted so they were right there with the battery. However, it also took a couple minutes to dismount, hitch the horses together with the lead straps and have the horse holders (mounted) move them to the rear with the Caissons. All this is for the American Civil War, mind you. I haven't a clue what the other period forces did, though I suspect it was quite similar. Certanly, on parade, men could ride on the limber chests, but on campaign and in action, that just didn't happen. Not like we imagine, anyway. FWIW, those wide, iron handles on top of the American pattern limber chest were not for the riders. They were designed for use by four men to lift the chest off when empty, and replace it with a full chest from the Caisson, etc. |
deadhead | 20 Jan 2014 11:41 a.m. PST |
Well I have found this fascinating. I suspect whatever applied to ACW, did 50 years earlier! |
Littlearmies | 22 Jan 2014 6:23 a.m. PST |
Deadhead, pretty much – except there was nowhere for foot artillery gunners to sit on the limber anyway. The ready use ammunition chest was (in the Gribeauval system anyway) placed between the cheeks of the trails of the gun and removed when the gun came into action and placed some metres away from the gun. Austrian Gunners rode astride "Wurst" seats in some batteries: TMP link |
jeffreyw3 | 18 Jul 2014 7:11 a.m. PST |
The Hemp rigging rope from Hobbies in the UK looks like the best solution for the Perry Russian limbers/caissons I have, but I was able to find twisted 1mm "Artistic Wire" at Michaels for a couple bucks that seems a very close match. |
Early morning writer | 18 Jul 2014 2:23 p.m. PST |
Otto, For those in need (surely not I) can you please provide a link to the most definitive farting web site you are aware of? Hey, thanks, man! EMW |
1968billsfan | 19 Jul 2014 4:44 a.m. PST |
Craft/hobby stores have several types of bead stringing wire. People buy the wire, string on pretty beads and babbles to make jewelry. There is thin "wire" that has a stainless steel core coated with coloured (white, brown, black, etc) nylon, which I found to be ideal for rigging 1/2000 naval sailing ships. It is very strong (50-100 pound)and stiff enough to give rigidity to the rest of the model. White "Elmers" glue will attach it and dry to near invisibility. link |
Winston Smith | 19 Jul 2014 5:34 a.m. PST |
The OFM comments that he needs no website, Otto. |
GROSSMAN | 23 Jul 2014 5:31 a.m. PST |
The Farting website I have under construction as we speak. It will contain guides to both silent and audible winding, and as I am flatulent in five languages there will be a translator provided. fartsmart.com. |
Art | 23 Jul 2014 7:22 a.m. PST |
G'Day Gents I would like to thanks everyone for their links and attachments. Does anyone have any links or attachments of horse artillery or foot artillery prolonging? Let me thank you in advance Best Regards Art |