Cacique Caribe | 08 Jan 2014 10:17 a.m. PST |
Coincidence? Attila's Huns, as painted in c1872, by Alphonse de Neuville:
This one painted in the 1890s by V. Checa:
Thoughts? Dan |
Mserafin | 08 Jan 2014 10:43 a.m. PST |
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John the OFM | 08 Jan 2014 10:52 a.m. PST |
My very first goblin riding a wolf was the small Ral Partha one, and it immediately reminded me of the first engraving. It looked more like Huns than my Hinchliffe ones! |
Cacique Caribe | 08 Jan 2014 10:53 a.m. PST |
Mserafin, I was hoping focus more on the motley and Turkic appearance of the riders. Dan |
Who asked this joker | 08 Jan 2014 11:06 a.m. PST |
Orcs don't ride horses? Nope. They eat them! Those pictures are very evocative of goblins riding on wolves. Goblin factory for example. link |
FatherOfAllLogic | 08 Jan 2014 11:51 a.m. PST |
Nope, don't see the connection. |
AcrylicNick | 08 Jan 2014 12:16 p.m. PST |
From Wikipedia Tolkien describes Orcs explicitly in one of his Letters:"
they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." So Cacique Caribe is absolutely right, at least insofar as today's Orcs and Goblins derive from Tolkien's works. Although the above paintings are supposed to depict "Huns", I doubt Victorian artists would have been very fussy about the difference. |
Cacique Caribe | 08 Jan 2014 12:41 p.m. PST |
Ammianus Marcellinus (c395) described the Huns this way
"accordingly the Huns grow up without beards, and without any beauty. They all have closely knit and strong limbs and plump necks; they are of great size, and low legged, so that you might fancy them two-legged beasts, or the stout figures which are hewn out in a rude manner with an ax on the posts at the end of bridges. They are certainly in the shape of men, however uncouth, and are so hardy that they neither require fire nor well flavored food, but live on the roots of such herbs as they get in the fields, or on the half-raw flesh of any animal, which they merely warm rapidly by placing it between their own thighs and the backs of their horses." link Jordanes' description isn't much better: link link Wow. Talk about propaganda! No wonder the Victorians painted them as barely human devils. Dan |
Great War Ace | 08 Jan 2014 2:06 p.m. PST |
If J.R.R. Tolkien were alive today, writing his books, how differently would he make them in this "PC" world? I doubt that referring to goblins and orcs as "repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol types" would get him published anytime soon!
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The Gray Ghost | 08 Jan 2014 3:03 p.m. PST |
are you sure it's propaganda? they didn't exactly leave a trail of art and culture on their trek from the steppes to europe. few people have have terrorized as many different cultures as the Huns did |
Curufea | 08 Jan 2014 3:08 p.m. PST |
You do know his battle scenes were influenced by his experiences in the Great War? |
Battle Phlox | 08 Jan 2014 4:16 p.m. PST |
I think Tolkien was very much influenced by WWI. The white hand of Isengard looks a lot like the white hand of Fatima used by some Muslim French soldiers. |
Cacique Caribe | 08 Jan 2014 5:16 p.m. PST |
Well, I must say that some of the modern reconstructions of elongated skulls make the Huns look pretty alien. Dan |
mrinku | 08 Jan 2014 11:02 p.m. PST |
The Huns and Mongols remained powerful memories in Europe long after Atilla and Ghengis. You can probably add the Turks to that list as well, for that matter, though they pale before the reputations of the other two. But they WERE the ones who knocked over Constantinople. Don't forget it was a mere 600 years earlier that the Mongol hordes *were* driving all before them in eastern Europe, and only 300 years since the Turks were last at the gates of Vienna. As I said on another thread, Burrough's Green Martians (which with a publication date of 1912 pre-date both Tolkien's writings and the Great War) are pretty much this class of horse nomad, with a good dose of Apache thrown in. And I have always suspected they had something to do with Orcs ending up green. Oh, and don't forget the Apache, Sioux, Zulus, Mahdists and other hard case natives in the equation. Tolkien was a child of Empire, and grew up on tales of last stands and massacres. You can see this ALL over his books – Helm's Deep is Rourke's Drift much more than it's the Somme. I have no idea what JRRT's personal feelings were about native warriors, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he had a gut fear (instilled at a young age) of this sort of thing. |
The Last Conformist | 09 Jan 2014 12:10 a.m. PST |
If J.R.R. Tolkien were alive today, writing his books, how differently would he make them in this "PC" world? I doubt that referring to goblins and orcs as "repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol types" would get him published anytime soon!
That description is from a private letter, not anything published in his lifetime. |
deflatermouse | 09 Jan 2014 1:07 a.m. PST |
I'm starting to notice quite a theme of questions of Victorian Concepts lately. More so than others. Can I ask what has inspired these? Where are they leading? Or are they a continuation of the Opar/Barsoom line of inquires? And yes I imagine Tolkin was imagining Victorian images of Mongols when he was describing Orcs. The description could almost before of the horde before the Devils Wind. |
ochoin light | 09 Jan 2014 6:09 a.m. PST |
Shakespeare was quite rude about Jews ('The Merchant of Venice') but within reason period biases are cut a little slack. The modern concept of Huns being ruthless barbarians was perpetuated by Kaiser Wilhelm, proudly describing his troops in their sack of Peking during the Boxer Rebellion. His proud claim led to the use of the epithet 'Hun' to describe Germans. And, of course, the real Huns were Turkic, not Germanic at all. The quirks of history
.. |
Cacique Caribe | 09 Jan 2014 7:42 a.m. PST |
Deflatermouse: "I'm starting to notice quite a theme of questions of Victorian Concepts lately. More so than others. Can I ask what has inspired these? Where are they leading? Or are they a continuation of the Opar/Barsoom line of inquires?" LOL. No real connection to my other interests, that I'm aware of. Two days ago my wife asked if I had any books to donate, and I found myself looking through the pages of Tim Newark's Barbarians: Warriors And Wars Of The Dark Ages link As I skimmed the pages I got to one of the chapters about the Huns and, it so happens that I came across the two paintings I referenced to in my initial post above, both of which were painted during the Victorian period. They left quite a strong impression on me when I first looked at them years ago, and that same feeling returned as I look at them now. Later more modern depictions of Huns, Magyars and Mongols just haven't evoked the same feelings in me as did those "Victorian" ones. With my somewhat "controlled" Attention Deficit Disorder it's not uncommon for my thoughts 1) to either jump from subject to subject or, as in this case, 2) to take a subject to the extreme, looking for patterns that may or may not be there. Hence my crazy question about today's Orc and Goblin figures, like those done by Citadel/GW and others. It made me wonder if miniature designers and sculptors had been impressed like me by those Victorian concepts and had been guided by them, either consciously or subconsciously. It then made me wonder if others had noticed some similarities too. Dan (who knows where my ADHD brain will take me next!) |
TheBeast | 09 Jan 2014 7:47 a.m. PST |
That description is from a private letter
As well as a truncated quote. I'm starting to notice quite a theme of questions of Victorian Concepts lately. More so than others. I thought a quite normal and expected line of inquiry for a Victorian Science Fiction board, and hardly the first I've seen, though I assume the inclusion of other boards are from the Ancient/Medieval/Fantasy source materials. Naturally, the 'Victorian Concepts' is oft invoked with an accompanying diatribe against 'Steampunk'. ;->= @ochoin light – Thanks for the reference! I'd always assumed the British use of the term was much older. Doug |
abdul666lw | 09 Jan 2014 10:23 a.m. PST |
Indeed illustrations in late 19th C. dictionaries and history book show that Victorians 'visualized' Huns and Mongols identically. A generic image owing much to contemporary drawings and photographs of Eastern Siberian horsemen (the fur bonnet, scale armor of square pieces, war scythe):
("Pillage d'une villa romaine par les Huns", Georges Rochegrosse, 1893) Howard still had this imagery in mind for his Hyrkanians (it was still widespread in the late "60, re. the 1st Funcken 'All Ages', Saxtorph's 'Warriors & weapons of early times'
faithfully translated in figurines by Alymer, Rose Models and the old Minifigs
): unfortunately, nowadays that miniatures manufacturers aim at historical accuracy, Hyborian players no longer have good Hyrkanians proxies. |
Cacique Caribe | 09 Jan 2014 10:52 a.m. PST |
Proxies aren't exact, but some are a little bit closer to the mark: link Dan |
mrinku | 09 Jan 2014 10:51 p.m. PST |
I'll throw another possible (non-Victorian) influence in regards to GW Orcs – Marvel Comics. Were goblins green before the Green Goblin? And there's more than a little Hulk in your GW Orc. Mind you, there's also quite a lot of football hooligan and skinhead there as well
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The Last Conformist | 10 Jan 2014 6:15 a.m. PST |
Speaking of GW, Warhammer lore includes a Hobgobla Khan, a hobgoblin(!) leader from the eastern steppes. They're not exactly hiding Mongol inspiration there. |
abdul666lw | 10 Jan 2014 8:02 a.m. PST |
Regarding the Orcish green skin, I don't have the English LotR at hand, but in the French translation the skin of an Orc (or an Uruk-Ai?) is described as olivâtre i.e. olive green. In French this is used also for the skin of Levantines and India Indians. Maybe this short mention is at the origin of the 'Green Skins' in the same way as a reference to the Elves's ears can be at the origin of the silly Dr Spock Elvish ears (unless they came from Disney's betrayal of Peter Pan?). But I suspect it has much to do with 'political correctness': no real Human ethnic group has a green skin (and blue has positive connotation, re. some Egyptian and Indian deities). |
Scorpio | 10 Jan 2014 8:23 a.m. PST |
Shakespeare was quite rude about Jews ('The Merchant of Venice') but within reason period biases are cut a little slack. See also: Lovecraft and his not-so-thinly-veiled racism. |
A Badger | 10 Jan 2014 2:20 p.m. PST |
GW's savage orcs are (or were – do they still do them?)a clear parody of African tribes. |
mrinku | 10 Jan 2014 2:28 p.m. PST |
"olive skinned" is also used in English to describe swarthy mediterranian types. No sillier than "white" to describe northern Europeans, "yellow" to describe Asians or "red" to describe American natives. We're all various shades of brown. |
mrinku | 10 Jan 2014 3:41 p.m. PST |
Oh, and before we TOTALLY blame Games Workshop, here's a Grenadier box cover from 1980:
Seen a LOT of hearsay about the green-skinned-orc thing, but not that much fact. One thing for certain is that GW DID decide to make their orcs and goblins green at some point in the 1980's and it stuck, but that decision was pre-dated by green being a valid skin colour in D&D. Space Orks and Warcraft Orcs directly derive from these. Warhammer Fantasy Battles definitely had green Orcs by 1984 (see the 2nd ed cover):
And I still reckon Green Martians are the root source for both Green Orcs and Green Aliens :) |
spontoon | 12 Jan 2014 12:54 p.m. PST |
From my reading of Tolkein I see Orcs/Goblins as being grey skinned. See Sam's descriptions after Frodo's capture in Mordor; and Merry and Pippin's descriptions when being carried by the Uruk-Hai. " hairy grey ear and jowl". At any rate, I've always pictures them as sort of a cross between Turkish/Hunnish/Chinese/Samurai. The Eastrons and Men of Harad are obviously Indians and Arabs. The descriptions of their armour and weaponry follow this course, too. |
Curufea | 14 Jan 2014 10:50 p.m. PST |
I've always viewed the Tolkein ones as grey or black. Grey because of their origins – almost undead Elves. Black because of how some of them subspecies are described (sometimes by other orcs) |
Cacique Caribe | 16 Apr 2014 12:08 p.m. PST |
I know this was supposed to be the Huns:
But I'm not quite sure if this was really supposed to be Attila or Alaric:
Nonetheless, I do love that they are wearing antique-looking segmented armor, just like these guys here:
Dan |