"US Marines at Bull Run. Will Perry Rebs in Frock Coats do?" Topic

Hi
Im considering using PERRY MINIATURES codes ACW 34 (Union Infantry in Frock Coats with Backpacks and Kepi):
link

AND / OR

Code ACW 31 (Confederate infantry in Frock coats):

link

I'll need to use the Confederate Command in Frock Coats
Code ACW 30:
link

because for some reason the Perry's don't do a Union command in Frock Coats. I'm assuming because they wouldn't be much different, (if different at all) from the Federal version.
Does anyone see a problem with using the Perry Confederates?
I'm thinking of using them because they don't have backpacks on which I think work look more like what the Marines looked like at 1st Bull Run.
Does anyone else do US Marines in 28mm that would fit in well with my existing Perry collection.

Easy! Just get the ones that look like they're running away!

How 'bout Perry's "Early Federal Militia"?

Hi Guys
The 'Early Militia' are in Shakos, which is really only appropriate for USMC on parades. At Bull Run the Marines wore Kepis and Frock coats.
The UMSC get a bum deal out of Bull Run. The battalion was made up primarily of Raw recruits:

"News that a battalion was going to be organized for field service swept through Marine Barracks, Washington. After a wave of excitement passed through the command, the difficulties of the assignment were reflected in a letter written by one of the junior second lieutenants of the post, Robert E. Hitchcock: "Last night after I passed down the line to receive the reports of the companies, I was met by Capt [James Hemphill] Jones, who said to me, `Mr. Hitchcock, prepare to take the field on Monday morning.' So tomorrow morning will see me and five other lieutenants with 300 Marines on our way to Fairfax Court House to take part in a bloody battle which is to take place, it is thought, about Wednesday. This is unexpected to us, and the Marines are not fit to go into the field, for every man of them is as raw as you please, not more than a hundred of them have been here over three weeks. We have no camp equipage of any kind, not even tents, and after all this, we are expected to take the brunt of the battle. We shall do as well as we can under the circumstances: just think of it, 300 raw men in the field!" –
See more at: link

I think the Perry Confederates in frock coat and kepi will be fine – from reading accounts, the Marines had "a fine military appearance" (no surprise there) at Bull Run – and I agree that they got a bad rep, because although they got caught up in a rout and ran they ralled, re-formed went back into battle, got caught up in a rout and retreated but rallied again and by the end of the battle were formed and under the command of their officers – which is about as good as it good for pretty much any of the Union units

Hi Frederick
My thoughts exactly. It's understandable that raw troops would break. What's impressive is the amount of times they rallied and returned to the fight.

Interesting … didn't remember 300 Marines being at the battle … it appears they did their duty …

I think it was the first and last time we ran.

I believe it's the only time we ran, and considering we were facing Americans…it doesn't count. :)

The Marines were the only unit at that battle that re-formed and attacked again after they routed. Additionally, there's an account by a surgeon in Jackson's brigade and he stated that the Marines penetrated Jackson's lines further than any other unit.

The only issues with using these figures is that you'll have to fudge the leather gear a bit. Marines wore a baldrick with the bayonet on it and you'll have to make sure you get figures with kepies rather than forage caps. Other than that the uniform differences are fairly minor.

Ex-USMC Civil War reeneactor here. This is a fairly famous shot of a few CW Marines. Also if I remember my history, the marines brought a 12# Dahlgren boat Howitzer with them to the fight. The Navy & Marines participated in many small raids and skirmishes during the ACW. Great topic for 28mm game, including the dozen or so Sailors that took a Confederate Calvary company's horses and evaded capture in a running chase.

The marines in that photo appear to be made by different manufacturers.

I add some photos of Marine re-enactors to my file on 1861. Eventually, I hope to have a nice Manassas set in 28mm.

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"All Marines wore sky-blue trousers with "French pockets." Photographic evidence shows that these pockets were of the "Mule Ear" design. Made loose, and designed to fit well over the bootee, the trousers of all officers had a welt of scarlet, three sixteenths of an inch in diameter, sewn into the outer seam. Only the senior enlisted ranks, Sergeant Major and Quartermaster Sergeant, and Orderly Sergeants, along with all musicians wore the same size scarlet welt sewn onto the outer trouser seam.

Officers not serving with troops were permitted to wear dark blue trousers, with a welt of scarlet, once again, sewn into the outer seam. In warm weather, all Marines were permitted to wear white linen, or cotton trousers, cut like the sky blue trousers."

from link

Excellent resource

The officers with dark blue pants would have been officers in staff positions and usually assigned to Marine Headquarters in D.C. They did not serve in the field and were not allowed, by law, to command troops.

That's correct. When I was in Harper's Ferry on leave I work dark blue pants, but the regs did not allow that when on duty in command. The 18559 regs are a fun read compared to the other branches.

Were you aware that the marines also carried Colt Revolving Rifles as well as Henry Rifles? This was seen mainly along the Mississippi.

The Marines were the only unit at that battle that re-formed and attacked again after they routed.

I think the New York Fire Zouaves might also have routed and reformed a couple of times at 1st Bull Run.
I think 1st Bull Run is, a fascinating battle to study.

Does anyone know how many colours the Marines carried at Bull Run?
I suspect it was just a national colour but they may have had a regimental colour also.

LOL @ saltflats1929!

As far as I can tell the Marines only had a National color. From what I can tell the Marines didn't adopt their own flag until just before WWI.

The Fire Zouaves broke when charged by JEB Stuart's cavalry and didn't come back, I believe.

Corsair, are you meaning the Mississippi Marine Brigade when you mention Colts and Henrys? That was not a unit of Marines, but an infantry unit assigned to river craft. The Marines did get some Sharps breechloaders, (you know they're for naval service because the barrels have been tinned to prevent rust), but never had the others as far as I know.

The Fire Zouaves broke when charged by JEB Stuart's cavalry and didn't come back, I believe

Again, some confusion here.
I've read accounts of the Fire Zouaves breaking after attempting an assault on Henry Hill, rallying and in the process being charged by some of Stuart's Black Horse Cavalry and repulsing them before retiring

@Dn Jackson not the MMB, pretty sure. The Henry's were documented during the Red River campaign, I may have the issue of Camp Chase that had the story. The Colt repeaters are documented with the Marine Corp from official purchase records.These were not in large numbers, may have been 50 or so. My research was done almost 20 years ago but ill dig around to cite the references at some point. Their main smoke pole especially at Bull Run would have been the .69 1842 Springfield. Until 1863 when the new 1863 Springfield's were tooled up.

Here is a mention of it -
A Colt revolving rifle was tried by the Marines. Ignition of both, as well as the M1842 musket, was by percussion cap. Neither the Hall nor Colt rifle had the power of the musket, and powder gases leaking at the breech made their use uncomfortable at best. Colt's revolver, held at arm's length to fire, was more successful. A Navy model six-shooter in .36 caliber was adopted for Marine officers in the 1850s.
link

Sounds like they bought some Colts and tested them, but didn't use them. Their main weapon for most of the war was the M1855 rifled musket and model 1861 rifled musket. They carried the M1842 smoothbore at 1st Bull Run, but only because they had issued all their rifle to troops going out on shipboard duty. they had to borrow the M1842s from the army and they were returned to the Army after the battle.

Archibald Henderson, the commandant just before the war had many political connections and got the Corps the best and newest weapons for several years.

The Marines were the only unit at that battle that re-formed and attacked again after they routed.

I would suggest a couple of Confederate units involved in the morning's fight could make the same claim.

Back to Figures:
The 25mm MiniFig range has Marines in Shako and crossbelts.
Nice figures which I painted about 30 years ago.

The Marines wore Kepi at 1st Bull Run. I doubt they ever wore the Shako in Battle during the ACW.

Use the Marine figures made by 1st Corps serials ACW 28a, 28b, 29a and 29b

link

These have the correct 2 crossbelts etc that the Marines wore.