"Best Tank Scale?" Topic

There is a pretty good chance that the next rules I'm going to design (after I get done with my spaceship game) is a tank duel game.

If I do, what scale should I choose for the minis, in order to get the fullest coverage? That is, what scale has all the tanks?

I'm thinking 1/100, but that's only after a couple hours of searching the boards and the interwebs.

Thanks in advance.

I had a bunch of 10MM WWII stuff in years ago and was amazed at the detail level at that scale for armor. It would be my choice if I was doing it.

6mm to have the best coverage. 15 is runner up.

I'd say what "else" do you want in the system? You're talking "tank duel" which means what exactly? A primary focus on armored warfare only? What period? If its WWII or later I'd go no bigger than 15mm. Also what part will infantry/combined arms play in all this?

If infantry, artillery, air sea or heliborne operations are going to be a part of this to what degree and depth will they be. You'll be focusing on tanks but I also assume infantry will also have some value as well. How detailed or how important will they be?

As to your question both 6mm and 15mm have really good coverage and will work well for tank actions particularly if you want to have any engagement range at all. 15 provides a nice "up close" feel which is nice if the numbers involved are about a platoon or so. If you'll have more tanks than that I'd suggest 6mm.

you mean 1:144 and 1:100 scale, those other numbers are sizes.

1:300 scale, which is nicely compatible with 6mm. Unless you are looking for best detailed models, in which case I suggest 1:35 and playing on a golf course.

If I do, what scale should I choose for the minis, in order to get the fullest coverage?

Why do you want to write the rules for just a single scale?

You could instead write a scale-independent or multi-scale set of rules.

Yes, I wouldn't get too hung up on the size of the toys, unless you are planning on using 1:1 figure:ground scale.

Having said that, tank duel implies single vehicles in small numbers, so you probably need to worry about turret movement, which precludes 3mm and smaller.

Purely in terms of vehicle coverage, then 20mm and 6mm have the broadest ranges, with 15mm playing catchup, but seriously, does it actually matter if you haven't got the exact model for e.g. a Jadgpanzer IV/70(A)?

Purely in terms of vehicle coverage, then 20mm and 6mm have the broadest ranges,

As one or two contributors have said, 1/144 has an excellent coverage. Not only do Pendraken, Perrin, Pithead and Minifigs do a good range, there are the outstanding models from Takara, Panzer Depot and the like. I have a collection of about 60 different Ww2 tanks in this scale and would highly recommend it.
Models are detailed, can be made up to have moveable turrets etc but are small enough to use on the typical 6ft x 4 ft table.
Not very familiar with 15 mm (although the Flames of War resin models I have seen are pathetic in detail compared to those I have listed above) and as for 6 mm- great for grand battles, but not for tank on tank. Just too small and lacking "presence".

1:43 is the best scale for wargaming but for tank modellers is that actual 1:32 the most used.

but for tank modellers is that actual 1:32 the most used.

I presume you are actually meaning 1:35 scale here?

If you're going to have a really detailed game with tanks then presumably facing and turret facing matter.
I would think the largest practical is therefore "best" which means 20mm IMO.
I also suspect that 20mm still has the widest coverage of different tanks.

Yes, I wouldn't get too hung up on the size of the toys, unless you are planning on using 1:1 figure:ground scale.

This is actually what I'm planning, and individual crewmen are going to make an impact. I haven't gotten very far into the process — the command and control rules are the core mechanic I'm going to have to invent, as the rest of the problems are old ones, and have mostly been solved by other people.

Models are detailed, can be made up to have moveable turrets etc but are small enough to use on the typical 6ft x 4 ft table.

These are exactly the requirements I'm trying to fill, thanks.

6mm-10mm, a little more realistic ranges and manuever space, IMO …

If you're only going to have duels -- implying 1 tank per side -- why do you need broad ranges of vehicles?

Yes, I wouldn't get too hung up on the size of the toys, unless you are planning on using 1:1 figure:ground scale.

This is actually what I'm planning, and individual crewmen are going to make an impact. I haven't gotten very far into the process — the command and control rules are the core mechanic I'm going to have to invent, as the rest of the problems are old ones, and have mostly been solved by other people.

I would not go larger than 20mm (aka 1/72 or 1/76 scale), and works out to 1"=2 yards. Might work for cities or bocage, though.

1/300 scale is 12"=100 yards, so a 5x10 (pingpong table) would give you a 500x1000yd field. And that's on the small end of the battlefield size for tanks.

I use to favour 1/100 scale for WWII layouts, but prefer 1/72 scale instead for earlier settings such as SCW --due to earlier tanks smaller size.

Lluís
www.minairons.eu

"This is actually what I'm planning,"

OK, as Lion says, 1/300th equates to 12" = 100 yards, and 1/100th equates to 36" = 100 yards, so if you are actually serious about this then anything large than 6mm is just going to be silly with the sorts of ranges WW2 tanks fought at.

Even at 1/300th, a typical 6x4 table is going to be quite up and personal, although we have done 1:1 figure:ground gaming with 6mm stuff, which works OK for infantry and tanks in restricted terrain (Normandy etc). More commonly now we use a 1/300th ground scale with 1/100th vehicles, which looks OK and is fine actions up to company size.

Or did you mean you are doing 1:1 model:vehicle ratio?

I'm doing 10mm with DzC.

Bob

Bah, go for 1:6 scale.

No, no, no. As popular as a certain anime series might be, I am not going to use Momoko dolls for the tank crew.

Depending on what your needs are I thin 20mm or 15mm are the best compromises. Anything bigger and you need a gymnasium to play in. Anything much smaller gives you more realistic ranges, but not much visual satisfaction in the models. I personally do 20mm.

You are putting the cart before the horse. define the parameters of the new game. Ground scale, groum#nd type, force size, type of engagement etc. BWhen this has been defined then the selection of the scale will be defined for you. It does not seem that you will get the simulation you want by arbiterilay picking the scale of models first.

MG uses 1:144 because it is the last scale we were happy to considere due to the need to rotate turrets. We bought everything 12, 10 and 6mm. Picking the smallest vehicle we wished to use 1:144 came out the best. 10MM is considerably smaller than 1:144. Vehicles are now well represented in this scale. Also at our ground scale villages of a representative area can be modelled by 10 to 20 houses which is playable without becoming boreing. A similar area at the same groundscale of 6mm houses requires nearly 80 houses (area scaleing) which was considered too many to be ineteresting although perfectly correct.

If I looked at a list for my force playing this game, what would it say?
1 tank?
1 company?
What?

What does it play against?
In what terrain?
What is a typical engagement range you envision?

Because the rules you would use for Wittmann wiping out swathes of ATG on the open steppes are probably going to be very different from him in Villier Bocage and different again from a company of Tigers taking on a couple of battalions of T34.

How do individual crew members fit into the mechanics?

"6mm to have the best coverage. 15mm is runner up".

From a quick online comparison, I cant find as many WW2 models made in 6mm as I can in 15mm and there are certainly less models available in 6mm than there are in 10mm , which ranges are you looking at?
Everyone knows that you can also get virtually any WW2 vehicle ever made in 20mm, albeit at a price.

In 6mm, model differences become insignificant – and the tabletop quality is at least as good as 15mm (this from an old GHQ spinner, so…).

Two things come to my mind:

1) Tabletop picture translation. How difficult will it be for players to convert the model/tabletop picture scale soas to form decision-relevant mental images? ie: seeing a 1/35 model 4" away but having to infer from the rules/groundscale that it is beyond short range?

2) Model-size interference. If a model occupies the tabletop/groundscale equivalent of tens/hundreds(thousands?) of feet how much is gameplay influenced (I would say wrecked) by the physical models themselves getting in the way?

IMO, for tactical (1:1 figure) games, the better ground and figure scale can match the better the game. WYSIWYG – it's not always (if ever) possible, but for skirmish/tactical/1:1 games anything that can be done to alleviate the tabletop:reality conversion for players is worth the time/effort.

For armoured warfare, 1:600 (3mm) is the best scale IMHO.

You can represent forces at 1:1 and ranges are closer to realistic both visually and in tabletop scale.

The problem with 1:600 is that you can't rotate turrets, which apparently the OP wants to do.

I know the USArmy used to use a LOT of GHQ microarmor (the local NG base still has the tables and umpire's room set up).

Some people run 15mm minis and 1/300 groundscale, which is about as good as you can get in terms of looking at the models for ID and still having a decent groundscale.

If you're bound and determined to have the same figure scale as ground scale, I don't think you can get any better than 6mm. 15mm works well for Normandy or Stalingrad, but Kursk would need to be played on a basketball court.

10mm (often called 144:1 for some reason, actually about 160-170) is a nice size to game with. Pendraken do lots of vehicles – not sure if you will be happy with not having every variant (which are often superficial changes). It noxes will with N gauge.

Last Hussar. 10mm is diferent to 1:144 (12mm). However Pendragon Infantry are actually more like 12mm. Some folk use Pandragon with Minifigs 1:144. MINIFIGS match plastic 1:144 (Dragon, Tumpeter etc. 1:144 and they match Ators Shipyard 1:144 so are true scale.

Think it depends on what figure you measure – I've just had one at 11mm (5'2")- 1mm is a big difference, unlike at 28mm!

However point taken. Be so much easier if we actually got scale rather than size- then we could abolish this completely idiotic 'measured to the eyes'.

Thanks, all. Given what I'm planning, I'm going to try out some 1:144 tanks. I'd love to match ground scale with tank scale, but may end up having to take the suggestion of 1:144 tanks and 1:300 shooting ranges to make everything fit.

If folks want to recommend their favorite manufacturers at this scale — assuming someone hasn't already mentioned them — I'd appreciate it.

(And I'm kicking myself for getting rid of some of those World Tank Museum tanks in the last move. Those were nice.)