"Need advice from some real life tank drivers." Topic

We are tweaking some of the rules in our WWII tank-tank game. We're disagreeing on tracked vehicles moving up or laterally across slopes. Here are some areas we need more info on.some say yes, some say no. Looking for info on WWII, not modern.

If a tank can move up a 30 degree slope on good ground, about how steep can it go up on muddy or snow covered ground?

It appears difficult for a tank to move laterally across a slope as the lateral forces on the tracks would be too great to be effective. Any info or opinions on a tank moving laterally on a slope or turning while going up a slope?

I checked on Google and could not find any specific information. Any technical references appreciated.

Thanks,
Wolfhag

Wolfhag…

From my experience….

The ability to move "up" a 30 degree slope on good ground is good…depending upon the ground and the driver. For muddy/snow covered ground….

1: For muddy, it depends what you mean by "muddy". If we are talking a day or so of steady rain where the ground is wet/saturated but hasn't turned into a swampy bog, I would say, yes they probably still can but it would be slower going simply due to the fact of mud and traction.
If's the ground is "swamped" ie: 2-3 days of hard rain, etc…Nope…you're going to get a lot of stuck tanks…

2: Snow covered..depends on "if the ground is frozen". If not…see above…

3: Lateral movement on slopes…done VERY slowly…weight of the vehicle vs the ground, if not, well…you and your crew get a lesson in putting back on a track that's been thrown on the inside usually…and it sucks…

4: Turning laternally to go up a slope?…SLOWLY…or well…break out the track jacks…again….

Tanks are only good IF they are able to move….

It is surprising what a tank can climb and cross as long as you keep moving. I have climbed some fairly steep rises and crossed some rather large waterholes, almost shallow ponds. I have also just about burried a few in deeper mud pits and broken tracks on hidden logs. Lateral movement on gradual slope no issues either. I would just design bog down checks in really rough going and keep it simple.

Do not forget that some tanks may be more capable, I think that the Churchill had very good slope climbing capability. Lateral movement on slopes, very carefully for the reasons above and remember they will tip over! No more than head and shoulders out of the hatch for that reason!

Interesting clips here:

link

Tally Ho!

I have a picture my friend took in Iraq in 1993 of half a dozen tanks stuck in mud. Yes, in a desert. Yes, on level ground!

Mud poses a problem. Ice does too. The coefficient of friction limits mobility and the mud poses a significant risk of bogging. Deep enough snow will too. 5" of snow would stop my old Ford Probe cold. It took >> 2' to stop my Explorer. Tanks are the same. Get enough snow and they will bog.

For a photo from WWII see: link

It illustrates a Mark III it looks like, totally bogged and off the road. Cavalry having defeated it. Yeah, horse cavalry!

Also consider that on a really cold morning your tank might not start, gears might be stuck, the friction coefficient is so low your tank becomes a sled, etc. The Germans and Japanese would build igloos for tanks to keep the engines warm in the Nomohan campaign.

It all comes down to – what purpose does ice or mud serve in the scenario you are running? Do you simply want to make tanks less effective or do you want to make some tanks more effective than others?

Up or down slopes with snow on them can cause issues if the ground is soft underneath or if there is ice underneath. I have twice found myself in a 60 ton sled and watched a third. The first was climbing a snow covered hill which I would say had a moderate slope. We almost made the crest when we lost traction and slid backwards, stopping just before a 5 to 6 ft dropoff.
The second was on an snow/ice slicked road going down into a village. We took it easy and slowly slid into the village doing a 270 degree spin along the way and halted in the middle of an intersection by a gasthaus where many were gathered to watch the fun as the vehicles came sliding down the hill.
The last was at night in a roadmarch on a dirt road with about a foot of snow on the ground. First tank up the hill on the road failed to reach the top and slid all the way back to the bottom. We went cross country and made it to the top.

Horse power to weight ratio plays a part, but so does track width. Shermans had a narrow track which eventually ended up having having flarings attached to the end connectors to increase off road mobility by increasing the surface area of the track that touched the ground.

When it comes to rules don't make things too complex … You may want to check AH's Squad Leader game to see how they handled it … I've seen it done and we've done similar. Designate certain areas/terrain as Difficult Terrain, like marshland, soft ground, etc., based on weather conditions, etc. … and when a vehicle enters, stops and or leaves the terrain/area it must take a Difficult Terrain Test(DTT). Like on a role of 1d6 they are stuck. And at the end of each turn roll to see if they are "un-stuck" like 4-6 on 1d6 … But again, I'd limit such detail. Unless you are playing say a Battle of the Bulge, etc. type scenario … Where weather played a critical roll in many cases. Otherwise in a temperate climate/bright sunny day, say in France, I wouldn't even bother with it. Unless you try to cross flooded fields, marshes, etc. Which based on my experiences in 3 M113 Mech Bns, we tried to avoid.

The only time I ever threw a track was going diagonally up an incline shorter than the length of the tank and less than 20 degrees on hard ground in sunny weather. Go figure.

Legion has the right idea. There are so many variables in cross country mobility, just use a die roll chance of getting stuck and then getting unstuck.

Although I have driven a tank some, I am very much a novice compared to others on the list.
But one thing about snow no one has mentioned. even if it is only a couple of inches. You can't tell what is underneath it!
In other words, places you might drive around and avoid getting stuck without it, you may drive right through with snow (Says the guy who got an M60A3 stuck in a giant puddle he would have seen had there been no snow on the ground)

Yes, unfortunately as a Mech guy, we've thrown a track or two but weather in many cases was not a factor. As Cold Steel said, there are many variables. Like one of our M88s ARV broke a track on a second class back road in the ROK. The road looked like a hardball, but too thin to support the M88's weight. Sent our other M88 but it got stuck in the soft ground near a "dry" rice paddy. In the recovery op we ended up having both M88s, and M113 and an M35 truck either stuck or broke down. I told the LTC, if we loose any more vehicles there. We'll just put a fence around them a call it a new motor pool … Tooks days to get the every thing back on the road. And this was in the summer time ! Then I had to do the damage report to get the US Gov't to pay for the road repair … When I left the ROK months later, I still don't think that road was ever repaired !

when you slip sidewise down a slope

CorpCommander … Just FYI – the USSR and Japanese were belligerents at Nomonhan/Khalkhin Gol … link …

You also have to be careful turning in bad soil. It will force mud or whatever into the tracks and you can throw one. I watched a new tank commander neutral steer on a fire to put it out. New Jersey has some sandy soil. He threw both tracks inside and tore up the final drives. He was not a happy camper.

I only spent 20+ years in and around tanks and what everyone has said is very dependent on the driver's skills and the crew's preventive maintenance work. If the driver forgets to take into account the variables noted he will definitely throw a track. I have been on crews that didn't and we ended up working well into the night for our lapse. I have also been on crews that was wary and was able to navigate some very rough terrain.

Side note: Marcus Arilius, where were those pictures taken? The bottom one looks like Wildfliken in November, 1977.

Charles M.

PMCS … PMCS and more PMCS … before, during and after ops …