Help support TMP


"Nontransitive Dice Sets" Topic


7 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please don't make fun of others' membernames.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Game Design Message Board


Areas of Interest

General

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Recent Link


Featured Showcase Article

Coverbinding at Staples

How does coverbinding work?


Featured Profile Article

The TMP 2016 Christmas Project

Fundraising for our Christmas charity project.


Current Poll


994 hits since 28 Dec 2013
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

CorpCommander28 Dec 2013 1:23 p.m. PST

I've been reworking a set of gladiator combat rules for sometime. I've always liked the Rock/Paper/Scissors design apparent in many great games, and while it doesn't always make sense to use it does frequently appear in games using tradeoff models such as mobility, strength, defense. Examples are WWII tank battles, jet combat and I believe gladiator combat!

Simply put a non-transitive dice set is one where Die A will beat Die B >50% and Die B will beat Die C >50% and Die C will beat Die A>50%.

Unpossible! You say!

Here look at this:

Die A has sides B, B, D, D, I, I.
Die B has sides A, A, F, F, H, H.
Die C has sides C, C, E, E, G, G.

The higher letter wins.

So how does one use this in a game design? I think it has to do with choice. Weak would be no choice but one fixed option. Better is two options. Ultimate is three options.

Another feature to observe is that A has a result that always wins and B has a result that always loses. One might then apply ideas to these when associating them with a class feature such as unarmed or unarmored would be represented by B. Piercing with A. Versatile with C.

Further modification can be made by determining who wins ties in the case of one die opposed to a similar die. This can be circumstantial. For example an attack from behind beats a tied defense. Or instead of having specific rules for all the possible interactions create conditional states where one warrior has an advantage and can spend it to trump a tie.

Creating the dice is pretty simple as most electronic die rollers have custom dice as an option. Also one could get blank dice and create stickers via a printer easily enough. Finally companies like Chessex can make custom dice. This last bit is expensive but if you are really happy with the system is the most satisfying.

vexillia28 Dec 2013 3:27 p.m. PST

Unpossible! You say!

Never!

--
Martin Stephenson
The Waving Flag | Twitter | eBay

vexillia28 Dec 2013 3:33 p.m. PST

non-transitive dice set

See bit.ly/1cxJi1Q for details.

--
Martin Stephenson
The Waving Flag | Twitter | eBay

CorpCommander28 Dec 2013 10:52 p.m. PST

I like the versions for more dice.

I haven't seen any games that use something like this. Are there examples out there?

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP28 Dec 2013 11:12 p.m. PST

Our QILS game is built on this property by allocating pips on a regular d6 across three capability areas by color. You end up with one die becoming tactically three independent non-linear random number generators, but strategically three interdependent allocations competing for the same fixed set of resources.

For QILS, it does come down to choice. You have to decide how to allocate the 21 pips to the capabilities. One of the better outcomes of this approach is there are about 5B significant different combinations, so (1) you have a lot of flexibility and (2) you really can't run them all in your head (or on paper, even), so you have to make decisions more at the meta-analytic level. The trade-off is among strength (pips per face with a color) and frequency (faces per die with a color) within a bounded set.

Although the theory of choices is a bit abstract, it is pretty easy to legally allocate the capabilities (just pick a color for each pip). And it is pretty easy to understand the general effects. The best part is you end up with all your tables encoded in the dice, so there is nothing to look up. Just roll and count.

CorpCommander29 Dec 2013 2:24 p.m. PST

@etothepi

Love the name. Just downloaded QILS. I like the idea already!

I think this thinking outside of the D6 without rejecting it is wonderful!

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Dec 2013 4:19 p.m. PST

Thanks.

Working within the constraint of the d6 structure helps keep a lid on power creep and eliminate "unbeatable" stats. Unbeaten players with unfathomable strategies are fine for a game. An unbeatable game component is not.

When balancing out forces for a scenario, among other things, I look at the non-transitive properties you are discussing. What they tend to do is lead players to strategies and modalities rather than rules and details when making decisions.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.