consectari | 12 Dec 2013 11:28 a.m. PST |
I'm hoping to eliminate this chart from a game, but my maths are not up to the challenge.
It is used to determine if a hit damges a target by rolling a D6 and comparing on the chart. I can't change the Strength or Toughness attributes. Way to complex. Is there any way I can get the same results or very similar without using a chart? Perhaps by either a simple method of generating a target number from the targets Toughness, or by doing an opposed roll off. Maybe if the attacker used 1 type of die and the target used another. Thanks |
Dynaman8789 | 12 Dec 2013 11:50 a.m. PST |
Calculations are Toughness – Strength + 4 Minimum of 2 Max of 6 If result is 8 or higher it is N Simplified down to Toughness – Strength + 4 A roll of 1 always fails. A roll of 8 or higher = N (depends on if rolling higher is better
) |
Mr Elmo | 12 Dec 2013 11:59 a.m. PST |
I always remembered this as equal values = 4 Shift by the delta, minimum of 2+, three worse can still hit on sixes. So S5, T4 = "one better" = 3+ Or S5, T8 = "three worse" = 6+ Or S5, T9 = "four worse" = No chance |
MajorB | 12 Dec 2013 12:10 p.m. PST |
How about this: Take the single line where Strength = 3 Toughness Score 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 7 N Then just roll on the table. +1 to the die score for each Strength point less than 3 -1 to the die score for each Strength point greater than 3 |
MajorB | 12 Dec 2013 12:14 p.m. PST |
Simplified down to Toughness – Strength + 4 A roll of 1 always fails. A roll of 8 or higher = N I think you mean: Toughness – Strength + 4 gives you the Target Score. A roll of 1 always fails. If the Target Score is 8 or higher = N |
Griefbringer | 12 Dec 2013 12:17 p.m. PST |
Perhaps by either a simple method of generating a target number from the targets Toughness, or by doing an opposed roll off. Maybe if the attacker used 1 type of die and the target used another. If you move from a single die roll to opposed die roll, then that can result in a rather significant shift in the probability distribution of results. As for the original issue, previous posters already covered quite well how to shift the original chart into a formula. |
OSchmidt | 12 Dec 2013 12:19 p.m. PST |
If Strength = Toughness score needed is 4. If toughness greater than strength then score is increased by 1 till maximum of 6 is reached. If toughness is less than strength reduce score by 1 till 2 is reached. |
OSchmidt | 12 Dec 2013 12:20 p.m. PST |
Oops! typo redid post. IF Strength = Toughness, score needed is 4. |
consectari | 12 Dec 2013 12:25 p.m. PST |
That is fantastic! I million thank yous kind TMPers. |
OSchmidt | 12 Dec 2013 12:25 p.m. PST |
Or another way Score = (Toughness-Strength to a max of 2) +4 If toughness is greater than strength it will result in a range of +1 to +2 and this added to the constant+4 to get the result. If toughess is less than strength it will result in a range of --1 to -2 which when added to the constant +4 will produce the bottom end of the rance. |
MajorB | 12 Dec 2013 12:52 p.m. PST |
Beware though, that a lot of players aren't that good at mental arithmetic. Adding or subtracting modifiers to a die roll most can handle, but working out even simple arithmetic formulae such as some of those suggested above will tax the mental powers of some players. |
GildasFacit | 12 Dec 2013 1:08 p.m. PST |
. or you could just keep the table – to me that would be a lot easier. |
consectari | 12 Dec 2013 1:10 p.m. PST |
We can still keep the chart around, this just offers a way to keep from refering to it. When playing, one side announces their strength, the other announces their toughness, so both can confirn the correct target number. |
Martin Rapier | 12 Dec 2013 1:44 p.m. PST |
I would concur that apart from anything dead simple, a chart is generally more effective and faster. I have also found that players struggle with even the simplest formula based arithmetic and long lists of modifiers just send me to sleep these days. Major Bumsores simple chart is a good compromise. |
OSchmidt | 12 Dec 2013 2:39 p.m. PST |
Dear Major Bumsore You're joking right? Are you serious that gamers can't handle simple arithmetical manipulations and iterations? Take strength from toughness, keep the sign and Is if over 2 reduce to 2 and add 4 to it? I can't believe that I'm that smart. Is that REALLY beyond most gamers? My god, how do they know if they've been short changed at McDonalds!? |
MajorB | 12 Dec 2013 2:48 p.m. PST |
Dear Major BumsoreYou're joking right? No, not joking. As you see, Mr. Rapier agrees with me. Are you serious that gamers can't handle simple arithmetical manipulations and iterations? I'm afraid so. It never ceases to amaze me how low the average intelligence of the human race apparently is. But I did only say "some gamers". |
Jeff Ewing | 12 Dec 2013 2:51 p.m. PST |
Maybe you could get a large d6 from Koplow or whomever, plus some stickers and print the result on the sticker? Frx: on the "4" side you could have: t1 s1 t2 s2 t3 s3 and so on, so the die would tell you the result? That might be more complex than the chart
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CeruLucifus | 12 Dec 2013 2:56 p.m. PST |
Target = Toughness +4. Match with Strength + Die Roll. 6 is a Critical, you get +1. 1 always fails. |
Extra Crispy | 12 Dec 2013 3:13 p.m. PST |
I had a gamer complain about a set of rules that he needed a calculator for melee values. The formula is Melee Value x 0,1,2 or 3 depending on formation. Melee values ranged from 3 to maybe 7 or 8. Yes, he was serious about using a calculator. |
Zephyr1 | 12 Dec 2013 3:38 p.m. PST |
If S>T, then 2+ hits If S=T, then 4+ hits If S<T, then 6+ hits 1's always Fail |
MajorB | 12 Dec 2013 3:42 p.m. PST |
If S>T, then 2+ hits If S=T, then 4+ hits If S<T, then 6+ hits 1's always Fail Looks neat but doesn't accurately reflect the original table. For example, if S=3 and T=2 according to the method above would require 2+ to hit, but from the table it is 3+ to hit. |
Privateer4hire | 12 Dec 2013 4:16 p.m. PST |
Each player rolls a die and adds their STR or TOUGHNESS. Ties go to defender. An attacks strength must be equal to or greater for this roll to even happen---otherwise the armor/defense is too tough for that weapon. |
Martin Rapier | 13 Dec 2013 12:25 a.m. PST |
I have generally found it is multiplication and division that players struggle with, not for an individual calculation, but just in terms of the game slowing to a crawl and making mistakes. Somewhat unfortunate as many of the real life relationships between combat variables are logarithmic, and trying to turn that into a D6 plus or minus a couple of mods is really hard without a chart. Or you could just throw handfuls of dice and pretend it is simulating lots of shooting. Or something. Urrrgh. |
Ottoathome | 13 Dec 2013 4:30 a.m. PST |
Dear Major Bumsore Well I can't really contest it. As I tink about it I can't tell you the number of times we've gotten new hires in my department who have graduated from prestigious schools who not only can't do simple arithmetic (let alone a bit of calculus) but to whom English is their second, but only language. Their first language seems to be texting. My favorites "in lieu of" where they think it means "in the light of" "I axed him " (Really and how many steps ahead of the police are you? Of course I once had a person out of Harvard business school to whom the mysteries of to,too, and two, were arcane. |
MajorB | 13 Dec 2013 4:54 a.m. PST |
My favorites "in lieu of" where they think it means "in the light of""I axed him " (Really and how many steps ahead of the police are you? Of course I once had a person out of Harvard business school to whom the mysteries of to,too, and two, were arcane. Indeed, I know what you mean! The number of people who do not understand the difference between "ordnance" and "ordinance" or who do not know when to use "there", "their" or "they're" astound me! |
AndrewGPaul | 13 Dec 2013 7:36 a.m. PST |
It may also simply be that looking up a chart is faster than performing mental arithmetic. Depending on the number of times you make thos rolls, that can have an effect on gameplay. Off-topic; that's the To Wound chart from Warhammer/40k, isn't it? Necromunda in this particular instance. |
etotheipi | 13 Dec 2013 7:46 a.m. PST |
My god, how do they know if they've been short changed at McDonalds!? By and large, most people don't. The number of people who do not understand the difference between "ordnance" and "ordinance" I've always been in favor of adding a little traffic ordnance here or there
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Patrice | 07 Feb 2014 5:12 a.m. PST |
There is a BIG difference between mentally calculating things when you are calm enough and have time to do it; and mentally calculating at a game table when you are tired by noise, stress, tactics etc. I am rather good at mental calculation, but doing it in the middle of a heated battle, and many times, can be very uncomfortable. |