"Today's Weather in the Mid South and MG George H Thomas" Topic

Almost 151 years since the Battle of Nashville and the near removal of MG George H Thomas from command of the "Rump of the Army of the Cumberland" by US Grant.

Considering how so many 20th & 21st Century transportation hubs are closed down across the entire region (at least as of last night), much like 151 years ago, I hope some thought goes towards just what Thomas was facing while awaiting troops, horses and supplies to reach him before going into battle.

It seems that Lincoln understood more about Thomas and what he was going through when he gave Grant the "arched eyebrow" approval to remove him, as long as he was prepared to live with the consequences.

What say you gentlefolk?

Have you read Grant's memoirs on the subject ???

Yes

Thomas wasn't waiting for stuff to reach him -- he was waiting for the ice to melt so he could move what he had.

To an extent, Don…he was waiting for final remounts (or Wilson was, at least) and they were held up by the weather.

But yes, you are correct…he was, mainly, waiting for the ice to melt.

One must recall there was bad blood between Grant and Thomas. When Halleck appointed Grant his second in command Thomas took over Grant's army during the interim. Grant almost resigned during this period, being talked out of it by Sherman.

Grant did have a real feud with Rosecrans. When he sacked Rosecrans, Thomas was going to quit with him. Rosecrans talked him out of it. When Grant appeared in besieged Chattanooga, cold, wet tired and injured, Thomas just stared at him until Grant's aide Rawlins said Grant needed warm clothes, etc.

Grant was prepared to hang Thomas out to dry for the frontal attack on Missionary Ridge – until the attack routed Bragg's army.

In Grant's memoirs, he had very little bad to say about almost any Union officer. He did say a few unkind words about Rosecrans and damned Thomas with faint praise. He also had a few brief words about Warren.

So weather aside, there was some bad blood there. To Grant's credit, he left someone he didn't get along with in charge of a large force of Union troops.

Well I know that there are varying opinions, but I am in the group that believes that Thomas has not gotten the credit that he was and is due and that Grant during the war and after did what he could to minimize Thomas. Just me.

Esquire,

I agree with you. I think, from my reading, was that any "feud" between the two was Grant's dislike of Thomas. But since Thomas never left any written memoirs, had his personal papers burned after his death, and died so soon after the war, we'll never know for sure.

Thomas, being a Virginian, was almost always looked at with suspicion by the Union military leadership. To my mind, as with others, he was probably the best and most "modern" of the Union generals. His troops liked him, giving him the nickname "Pap."

Jim

That's always been the rub I think, Thomas dying first, so there were few to refute anything Grant or Sherman wrote later on.

I've always had the impression that Lincoln kept a weather eye out for Thomas, because of Mill Springs when everything else had gone so poorly in 1861 prior to his victory. The man no longer had political cover or support, but he continued to win and I think Lincoln did his best to quietly support him…though of course, that can never be known due to their early deaths and lack of memoirs.

Thomas made mistakes, as did every single ACW general out there, but I think he was probably the best battlefield general the North had.

Grant gets the nod for having the overall strategic view for defeating the South (after, of course, acklnowledging Winfield Scott).

Col. Campbell is correct in that Thomas was also a "modern" general in every respect.

Dunno about Thomas being the 'most modern,' but he was
a 'private's General,' as a later generation had it,
and a logistician without a peer in the ACW-era
US Army.

Grant really didn't criticize anyone in his memoirs, but
he probably should have given Thomas credit for Thomas'
accomplishments.

Sherman, a close friend of both men, seemed to feel that
Thomas had been shorted in recognition, but did
acknowledge that Thomas didn't seek it, indeed shunned
it.

"Grant really didn't criticize anyone in his memoirs"

Not in the lavish fashion common in other Civil War generals' memoirs, but he did give Rosecrans a brief kick, talked about Warren's penchant for piecemeal attacks and said Thomas was slow. Compared to the mud slung by others it was nothing.

I too will freely admit that Thomas baulked at senior command several times, probably wisely prior to Chick-Chatt considering the "Revolving Door O' Generals" being kicked out of senior commands prior to Gettysburg; which may have led Lincoln and others to think he might not be the right fit for (the then equiv of) "Army Group" commander.

But to be sidelined after Nashville was a complete and terrible injustice.

But to be sidelined after Nashville was a complete and terrible injustice.

Sidelined? He continued in command of the Department of the Cumberland, which was expanded, after Schofield and the 23rd Corps were sent to NC, to include all the territory that had been in the Dept. of the Ohio.

What command do you think he should have been given? Grant's, Sherman's?

Easy Don…he was sidelined by not having an active field command, which is what he wanted and was planning for, only to see Wilson and other get the field assignments.

True, he was entrusted with a rather large department, but he was a fighting general and expected…something along those lines.

BTW, as an aside, I went to the Deering Estate today and they've taken down all the "art deco" art (probably shipped off to Art Basle) and put up not only the Holiday decorations, but much of the "family and friend" portraits that had been removed for the past three months.

I came across Major General Whipple's portrait and it rang a bell, (re)read the little bio off to the side and Yep, he was GH Thomas's Chief of Staff from Chattanooga onwards and a somehow a friend of John Deering.

Guy had a pretty interesting life too, especially making his way to Washington after being stuck out west when the war broke out.

Technically, Wilson was working for Thomas in '65, in the absence of Sherman. Sherman had wanted Thomas to invade Alabama with an all-arms army but only Wilson's cavalry was ready to go and turned out to be more than enough.

Had Lee made it to Lynchburg and on to Tennessee, as he might have tried for if he had avoided Grant at Appomattox, Thomas would have had the job of stopping him or at least delaying him until Grant caught up. Thomas had sent the 4th Corps to East Tennessee and could have taken field command there if he wanted to.

The only other chance of seeing real battle after Nashville was Canby's campaign against Mobile, and I admit that Thomas was better qualified than Canby for active operations.

Fair enough, Don…I am very well read in re: Thomas, but as most everyone knows, I've been stuck in Lahore working on my Sikh War book, so I have forgotten many of the details.

Thanks for filling in the gaps for me.

I have the new Thomas BIO on converted Mp3 and am planning on listening to it in the near future.