Griefbringer | 01 Dec 2013 3:53 a.m. PST |
I am feeling a bit confused for a change with the terminology used for certain wheeled vehicles used by the British army in WWII. Apparently wheeled vehicles featuring a gun of some sort and armour protection would be classified in at least the following groups: 1.) Scout cars 2.) Light reconnaissance cars 3.) Armoured cars What is confusing me is that I cannot figure out the exact distinction between the different types. Is the division based on some physical criteria (like size of gun, level of armour or weight), or intended tactical usage, or was it just some arbitrary decision by Ministry of Defense? |
shaun from s and s models | 01 Dec 2013 4:14 a.m. PST |
yes it is a bit confusing we had so many different types of recce vehicles esp during ww2. some books i have read did change their vehicles around as some were better than others for certain tasks, esp in italy where the bigger a/cars were too big for some of the roads and tracks. as a generalization scout cars like the dingo seldom had a gun fitted but could carry a bren, light recce cars like the ac9 could have a bren or boyes at rifle and a/cars like the humber or daimler had a small cannon or gun like a 2 pdr. the more you read about gb ww2 recce the more a picture of small stealthy cars were prefered, until you got shot at! |
Doms Decals | 01 Dec 2013 4:20 a.m. PST |
Broadly speaking, turreted gun = armoured car, not = scout car, and an armoured hull on a chassis that wasn't designed as an AFV = light recce car, but it's not an entirely consistent system. Some things don't fit the pattern, as the LRC designation took a while to appear; classics like the Rolls Royce, Lanchester, and even the Marmon-Herrington would probably have been LRCs if it was an established "class" when they were introduced. There's a decent summary here: link |
kustenjaeger | 01 Dec 2013 4:33 a.m. PST |
Greetings The War Office etc nomenclature grew out of the development of the vehicles themselves. The scout car (originally the Daimler, later the Humber as well) were designed to be light fast scouting and liaison vehicles with an LMG. The armoured car was intended as the main equipment of the armoured car regiments – so 12th Lancers in France with Morris' and 11th Hussars in Egypt with Rolls and Morris' – by 1940 usually an MG and a Boys AT rifle. Post the losses in France 'light armoured cars' were built on commercial chassis as a stop gap and, when enough armoured cars etc had been built, were used by the newly formed Reconaissance Corps and hence became 'Light Reconaissance Cars'. However Recce Regiments ended up needing heavier cars so they were issued true armoured cars as well (e.g. Marmon-Herington, Humber, later Daimler). These, starting with the Humber, had a 15mm Besa, later (Humber IV) a 37mm and then (Daimler) a 2pdr. Support versions (AEC) ended up with 6pdr and 75mm. In theory a late war armoured car troop would have armoured cars and scout cars, a recce squadron scout troop would have armoured cars and LRCs. In both cases in contemporary accounts these will often be referred to as 'heavy' and 'light'. So, roughly: Scout car – Daimler 'Dingo', Humber LRC: Humber, Morris Armoured car: Morris CS9, Rolls, Humber I-IV, Daimler I-II, US Greyhound, Staghound, AECI-III. Clear as mud? Regards Edward |
Jemima Fawr | 01 Dec 2013 4:58 a.m. PST |
As Edward says; Light Recce Cars were converted commercial chassis. Before the war, the term Light Recce Car was used to describe unarmoured touring cars and the like used for recce, forward observation, etc, in lieu of horses. |
Tarleton | 01 Dec 2013 5:06 a.m. PST |
Don't forget the AEC wheeled tank :) |
Jemima Fawr | 01 Dec 2013 6:11 a.m. PST |
Yes indeed, the Guy Armoured Car and Morris LRC were also originally described as 'Wheeled Tanks'. I think that might have been a manufacturer's description though? And then there are also 'Wheeled Carriers' and that's a whole new can of worms
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hocklermp5 | 01 Dec 2013 7:54 a.m. PST |
The "Staghound" weighed around 14 tons which qualifies as a wheeled tank. Interesting how many went to countries around the world after WWII. I have a book on Nicaragua in 1979 when the Guardia was fighting the Sandinistas and in one pic of street fighting there is a "Staghound" advancing with Guardia wearing Israeli made Kevlar helmets and carrying Galil assault rifles. |
Griefbringer | 01 Dec 2013 8:11 a.m. PST |
So whether a car is armoured car is not determined by the presence of armour, but by the presence of a turret? There has to be some British logic behind that. As for wheeled tanks, don't forget that US military named one of their (tracked) tanks as M1 combat car in the 1930's. |
Jemima Fawr | 01 Dec 2013 8:20 a.m. PST |
The Japanese also defined one cavalry tank model as an 'armoured car', because the infantry were officially the only branch of the IJA officially allowed to have tanks
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spontoon | 01 Dec 2013 9:32 a.m. PST |
Best not to mention the Commonwealth offerings, too! Such delights as The Galloping Slit Trench from Australia, India pattern Carrier, Otter LRC,
. |
Jakar Nilson | 01 Dec 2013 2:32 p.m. PST |
Galloping Slit Trench. I can't find anything on Google about that one. Was it the Rover? Please enlighten us. |
number4 | 01 Dec 2013 10:46 p.m. PST |
Sounds more like something after a good curry! |
Some Chicken | 02 Dec 2013 5:02 a.m. PST |
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DBS303 | 02 Dec 2013 6:43 a.m. PST |
Griefbringer asks about British logic
I think the best way of looking at it is the expected role of the vehicle. The armoured car is the oldest category, going back to the First World War. It is a vehicle expected to be able to fight, whether in a colonial policing role (which was a hugely important task for the British armoured cars before 1939) or in aggressive reconnaissance – eg 11th Hussars making life miserable for the Italians in 1940. A variant name briefly used circa 1939-40 was the Wheeled Tank: my suspicion is that it was given to the Guy armoured car to mark the fact that its main armament was somewhat beefier than that of in-service cars such as the Rolls and the Morris, and was equivalent to that on the Mk VI Light Tank, which had a comparable role, at least in theory, in the armoured brigades, even if necessity meant it was too often misused. The scout car proper is the classic Daimler, and its less well known cousin from Humber. Designed for recce by stealth. High speed, reversible steering, good turning circle all emphasised. The light recce car is the commercial second division "cheap" offering for the new Recce Corps. Not as good as the scout car for MOUNTED recce by stealth, but note that I think all the variants had a normal crew of three, compared to the two in a scout car. So greater capability for the dismounted role – a couple of chaps can get out for a sensible mutually supportive closer look at a target, whilst leaving the driver to look after the wagon. Also useful for jobs such as Forward Air Controller when you need a bit more space in the vehicle for extra radios, and don't need the sportiness of a scout car. |
Fatman | 02 Dec 2013 6:57 a.m. PST |
DBS303 "Griefbringer asks about British logic
" Thereby proving that he never served in the British military. ;-p Fatman |
mysteron | 02 Dec 2013 7:28 a.m. PST |
Didn't the Humber Scout Car have 3 crew? It was quite a lot bigger than the Daimler which had a crew of 2. |
Trockledockle | 02 Dec 2013 2:03 p.m. PST |
Mysteron- yes you're right-it did and was preferred by regimental/brigade commanders for that reason. The commander of the 43rd Division used a Humber LRC with the LMG turret removed. |