"Best rules for 20mm?" Topic

What are the best rules for 20mm ww2, have already got rapid fire….what else is out there!
Best rules and why? ??

One way you can see what else is out there by reading the posts in this message board. What are you looking for in a set of WWII rules? Are you just looking for opinions or are you looking for rules that model 1:1, a stand is a plt (or whatever), lots of tanks, few tanks, etc., etc.?

What level of game are you looking for? Skirmish? Platoon? Company? Battalion? Operational?

Also consider that for many rules, miniature scale is irrelevant except as a parameter. Many platoon level sets work from 15mm up to 28mm for example.

The Battlegroup series, although as Major said, what scale of game are you after? You could play a Platoon sized game, typically designed for 28mm, with 15mm minis. What are you after old chap?

Well Battlegroup grew from people who once played Rapid Fire… Though its a very different game. Its kinda a 20mm system at its heart(though plays in any scale).

Some links on Battlegroup…

guildwargamers.com

ironfistpublishing.com

Video intro to the rules with the designer;

link

I found Battlegroup to sit very well with my Rapid Fire built armies as that was my previous WW2 set, so you would find the transition painless if you have forces already created for RF. But Im biased!

Of course, as others have said, most WW2 rules will work in most scales. CoC, FoW, BA and RoE all work in 20mm even if not explicitly stated as such.

Was thinking more of battalion sized games, sorry guys should of said!

Can you use BA for battlion sized games?

Bolt Action is pretty much platoon skirmish with one or two vehicles…

What about Command Decision? Would need to rebase stuff though I think. Never played it myself, not my cup of tea, but a few guys on The Guild play it.

I would say I Ain't Been Shot Mum is the best on offer at the moment but, unfortunately, it seems to have more than its fair share of dislikers…especially those who like Rapid Fire, for some reason. And, for smaller battles, Chain of Command is good…although the same people who dislike IABSM seem to dislike that one as well. IABSM is an excellent set of rules that does company level battles at 1=1 ratio.

Battlegroup is trendy at the moment, I've not played it but have heard that it might just be the Holy Grail of 20mm, company level, 1=1 vehicle and figure scale.

Then there's the operational level games like Rapid Fire and Command Decision where each figure (or pair of them) is a platoon. Not to my tastes, especially the simplistic and, frankly, boring Rapid Fire.

In addition to IABSM you can look at FireBall Forward, squad stands and individual vehicles so probably not to your taste.

Command Decision is worth a look, originally written for 20mm if I remember correctly.

Fistful of Tows is worth a look but it is written for 6mm so perhaps scaling the inches listed in the rules to 2" in play would be helpful. A free lite version is available online to see if you like it.

Was thinking more of battalion sized games, sorry guys should have said!

In that case, you won't want either Chain of Commmand (which is Platoon level) or IABSM (which is Company level).

Was thinking more of battalion sized games, sorry guys should have said!

Of course, if you mean games in which the basic unit is a battalion, then I recommend Megablitz.

Have already got COC, BOLTACTION, both good sets but I tense to play BA. More!
Have ready about IABSM, company level would be good!
The only thing I really need to consider is I have early war stuff, so not sure group overlord will work?

Battlegroup that should of said, sorry

Have already got COC, BOLTACTION, both good sets but I tense to play BA. More!

I much prefer CoC over Bolt Action, but neither operate at the level you want, so I'm a bit confused as to why you mention them.

Have read about IABSM, company level would be good!

I think you need to make up your mind what level of game you are really looking for. You seem to be mixing platoon, company and battalion level games here.

The only thing I really need to consider is I have early war stuff, so not sure Battlegroup Overlord will work?

You will need to stat up your early war vehicles for use with the Battlegroup game engine. Shouldn't be too hard. Battlegroup Kursk at least should have the German stuff. Have a look round the forums, someone may have done so already …

Battlegroup Barbarossa is out next April and Blitzkrieg is out in October…

Ah right ok! I have enough figures to play bolt action and chain of command, I have a copy of rapid fire, what I looking is the next level up weather that be battalion or company level? Hope that makes more sense?

I have a copy of Rapid Fire, what I looking is the next level up whether that be battalion or company level?

In that case, Battlegroup (Kursk or Overlord) is 1:1 so not what you are looking for either.

For company level, I would suggest IABSM. Not my personal favourite, but an awful lot of people rate it highly.

Rapid Fire is really battalion to brigade level, but I think you are looking for an alternative?

Command Decision: Test of Battle seems to be quite popular, though I've never played it.

If you want to go higher than Rapid Fire, then take a look at Megablitz.

Note that for higher level games you will need to reorganise the stuff you already have, adding in more support weapons. When you get to the level of Megablitz you will need artillery (that is normally off table in lower level games), logistics and rear echlons and even air support.

Command Decision was indeed originally written for 20mm. Rebasing is really necessary as long as everything based similarly. It's definitely a Battalion level game. The new version has a pretty nifty battle generator to allow for non meeting engagement pick up games. Additionally, there are a large number of historical scenarios available, if your toasted run to that direction.

Quite like the sound of iabsm, does anyone have more details? A PDF version?

Quite like the sound of iabsm, does anyone have more details? A PDF version?

link

Search for IABSM in youtube and you can get a number of videos about the game as well.

Command Decision is the best set for battalion-or-so on a side games. It has command and control mechanisms and basing ideally calibrated for that size game.

Bases are generally representing platoons or groups of support weapons.

It uses a D10 for combat resolution – quality of the troops being fired at effects the combat result.

Morale is resolved by company.

Just been reading about command decision, mmmm not keen on what read, so think will rule that one out:( thanks thoe:)

What did you not like at CD? Knowing that can help narrow down what you may prefer.

Nice correction of 'whether' mr bumsore…

Yeah I'd suggest YouTube as a way to gauge what game would be what you are after. I've never played anything grander than FoW (and that was not my cup-o-tea) but YouTube is how I've been getting familiar with CoC and the Battlegroup series. Hope that helps…

I use IABSM for games up to company size, Battlefront:WW2 in 20mm for larger games, up to a battalion a side.
Crossfire also works well.

Blitzkrieg Commander should also work well for battalion to brigade sized games.

Is blitzkrieg commander not more suited to smaller scales?

It is written with 10 mm in mind but can be used with any scale because it has no rigid base requirement.

blitzkrieg-commander.com

You realy need to decide what sort of game yoy want.

If its not too demanding and no too realistic its a different game to a serious simulation. It not the number or size of the book that counts but how much thought and planning you want/can do to do.

Maneouver Group has simple rules but the game can be demanding. It easy if the next move takes you only 6" or so from your last position. However if it can take you 6 ft from your last position the game is more complex. Do you re-deploy to a second position? Can you rush through a gap that is un-protected. Running a company in MG is quite demanding. A bit like a game of chess very simple rules but very complex game. Commanding a vaugely realistic battle group is no simple task even when you can see it all and see some of your opponents forces. MG works at 20mm for small basicaly infantry games at up to company level with maybe a dozen or so houses but is not ideal for big battles as the Vehical gun ranges are too long. 8 by 6 ft (max 960 yards) is still very close for a tank battle and not ideal.

10mm better as the grond scale is smaller for tank battles. Same rules but now table is around 2km max so actual combat ranges tend to be in the 500 to 1500 range. More typical ranges for vehicle battles.

Bad news is no points system in MG.

Points systems only work for unrealstic terrain. A tank in dence terrain is useless but is its element in open country. Therfore points systems have to have sterile pre set terrain to match the points system.

Again both ways of playings have merit in accordance to what you want.

I think Rich Bliss meant to say that Command Decision does NOT usually require rebasing.

A stand is a platoon, and you can have as many or as few figures on it as you want. You may need to tweak some details*, but nothing major. I've heard of people playing CD with FOW stands.

*The details would involve issues such as how much space the stand occupies versus the size of artillery templates, for example. You want to avoid distorting the game so that stands are too crowded together and provide an overly target-rich environment.

I play CD with 20mm figures and find it works great, even though my stands are a little bigger than the size suggested in the rules.

RF is fast and well supported by scenario books and online sources. It is quite flexible and easily played. Its old school origins are evident, but it is very complete with rules for grenades all the way up to aircraft carriers all designed for 20mm. For me WWII is about the integration of all arms and the massive potential for scenario design. RF is great for bath tubbing complex operations simply. An earlier comment said that RF was boring. Well, if you want subtle low level tactical rules RF will not provide it; a simple scenario might be boring. But if you are creative and do something more varied RF allows you to do it with lots of fun.

Rapid Fire! is a great game system for a simple WW2 game. If you want to go less "general" then Battlefront WW2 is a superb set of rules, and ahead in the stakes by a huge margin, if you have the table space. Quick to play too.

If you want to stick with the platton as the basic unit as per Rapid Fire which lets you fight out WWII battles (ie not just a fight over a generic farm house) then Command Decision would be the next logical step.

The first edition was one of the brilliant wargame designs in the history of the hobby. Current editions ladle on too much complexity for my taste but it does have a hard core of fans. (I use my own Combat Command for this level of WWII play – similar in concept to the original Command Decision but with updated mechanics).

For lower level games we have been experimenting with the Battlegroup serias. We briefly re-tried various versions of Shot Mom but that quickly sent us back to Battlegroup.

TomT