"Pre Dreadnaughts" Topic

Gentlepersons,

I have recently purchased my first ships for this period and would like to ask if squadrons in this period were mixed or homogeneous. My reading of Tsushima seem to indicate the Japanese navy put armoured cruisers in the battle line. Was this common in other navies? Any information would be most appreciated

Colin

Generally no, even those nations that placed armoured cruisers in the battle-line had them in a separate squadron.

Lightly armoured battleships (such as those of the Italians) were mixed with other battleships where necessary but even then it was considered better to keep fast ships together so they'd only be with slower ships if there were too few to form a separate squadron.

In extremis though, I think most navies would have done it rather than risk being outnumbered.

The Japanese use of armored cruisers was out of necessity, due to earlier losses in capital ships. Though the ships survived the action, it was not in any navy´s doctrine to use cruisers in the line of battle.

Welcome to pre-dreads by the way, I´ve been doing it for ages and it never gets dull! What ships did you buy?

Gentlemen;
Thank you for the information.

Texas Jack,

I bought Panzerschiff British and Russian battleships, cruisers and transports. I am planning a purchase of WTJ British torpedo gun boats, destroyers and Apollo class cruisers as well as Viking forge tugs and trawlers. I have a copy of "You may fire when ready Gridley" rules which I like.

Colin

Well done Colin, you are well on your way! I don´t have any of the new WTJ ships, but their old pewter models are outstanding and I expect the new ones will be as well.

WTJ models are very nice but they are 1/3000 and Panzerschiffe are 1/2400. A 20% difference in size is pretty noticable

No problem as long as you are aware of it

Actually WTJ are now offering multiple scales including 1/2400.

afilter is correct. WTJ has just recently started producing "Rapid Prototyped Plastic" Pre-Dread models in 1/3000, 1/2400, 1/1800 and 1/1500 scales.

They still have a limited number of ships at this time, but they are expanding.

As you might expect, the Russian, Japanese, Spanish and American fleets have the greatest number of vessels available; but the British, German, French, Italian, Chinese and South American navies all have ships available (as well as a growing list of Destroyer-types).

Here is a link to their products:

wtj.com/store

I purchased a few 1/2400 ships and was quite impressed with them. Here are links to a couple of posts on them. The first one shows what I got and the second compares a few to similar Panzerschiffe's:

link

link

-- Jeff

Blast you, Jeff!!! Can't you hear my resistance buckling?!?!? Damn, but those ships look lovely…

MacrossMartin,

So, which scale calls to you the most, eh? Mine are 1/2400.

Corporal_Trim over on the "Castles of Tin" blog just got some 1/1500 WTJ ships:

link

But Corporal_Trim was trying to match some older ships of his that he thought were 1/1800 (turned out he was wrong -- they were 1/1500 scale) so he had ordered some samples in that scale from both WTJ and Shapeways. Here is a link to his post where he has photos of both of them in 1/1800:

link

And there are a lot of photos on the WTJ website too:

link

So, sir, has your resistance failed yet? Christmas is next month you know . . . hint, hint, hint.

-- Jeff

The Hellenic navy during the Balkan Wars had a AC as a flagship, and old -pre-dreads in the line of battle.

I am sold. I just bought the Naval Thunder bundle and am planning to go for the SpanAm war with WTJ miniatures. A slight disappointment, though, is that USS Texas is not available yet in their awesome "Rapid Prototyped Plastic" line, which is a pity as you can get from them all that's necessary for gaming Santiago de Cuba. Any hint they will make it soon?

foxbat,

I suggest that you email them and ask . . . however a word of warning as to the Spanish-American War . . . the naval battles were very one-sided.

You might want to consider the Russo-Japanese War . . . with the Yellow Sea main ship orbat to start with . . . that is only six ships a side and can be quite an even fight . . . but if your desire is the SAW then go to it, sir, and have fun.

-- Jeff

Foxbat,

Jeff is correct, the historical SPAN-AM War battles are very lopsided. the ships are fun to collect though and there are many oppotunities for alternate history battles to even things up.

BTW, Panzershiffe does have the Texas and all the others. The detail is slighly less, but at 1/2400 you can only have so much. Adding mast makes a big difference.

[URL=http://s441.photobucket.com/user/adfilter/media/RotB%20II/DSCN1666.jpg.html]

Here is an alternate history AAR I did a while back:
link

I have complete fleets for RUSSO-Japanses War and there are three very good battles (Ulsan, Yellow Sea and Tsushima). I am currenly working to complete the American Navy up to 1906 along with Spanish and some German to do altenate history SPAN-AM war as well as post RUSSO-Japanese War conflict in the Pacific with Germany Japan and U.S.

Once you have the models the options are limtless with a bit of historical imagaination and a good background story. The Pacific was a tinder box for many years in fact Germany seemed to be spoiling for a fight at the time of Manila.

Have Fun!

Thanks fort the help!

Just contacted them, we'll see how it turns out, and of course, I'll keep you posted. I know PZS made the Maine, but well, I'd like to have better looking minis even in that scale (1/2400). I have purchased quite a few GHQ ships, and I love to paint them to a good standard and shoot pics of them, I don't think the PZS minis are what I'm looking for, even though they are fairly good for tabletop gaming.

Now, I think eventually I'll do both conflicys, but I think I'll start with the earlier conflict. For several reasons, in fact… I live in France, end even in the wargaming community, no one has heard of such an exotic war. Though I guess tha SpanAM war will be limited, for me, to the Atlantic side (Manila is even more of a slaughter than Santiago, the Spanish having been caught unprepared in the harbour).

Regarding balancing games, you have several ways to balance an uneven fight, and hopefully I'll do that. I love to create wargaming scenarios, and Santiago just tickles my mind (lots of possibilities there : a night battle, difficulties of keeping a blockade and refueling could get some US ships out of the game, batter coal for the Spaniards, full complement of guns on the Colon, all these can make for several games, and even a mini campaign).

OUTSTANDING!

WW I naval, the 'golden age' of the dreadnaught if you would, is always fun to see and have played a 'few', but something about the Pre-dreadnaught ships that has always captured my attention. Perhaps its the unconventional design of the ships. Before HMS Dreadnaught, ship design appeared to be "Oh just put a gun any old where." With apparently little thought to 'arc of fire', not to mention the lack of uniformity of main gun caliber for some nations among their battleships.
I will say, if you look at the Maine and Texas, the unusual gun layout, only ADDs to the challenge of the game. Its not as simple as two forces sailing in battleline and going at it broadside to broadside.

Im floored that this photo just happens to have the two U.S. ships that have always interested me the most. The Maine and Texas. I guess I should say, Dad (rip) was born in Maine and in WW2 served on a later version of the Texas.

As for the comments about the S/A war being 'so' out of balance, I have to agree. Just some thoughts, you might add something like a 'possible engine or main gun failure' roll for the U.S., torpedo boats, mines etc. something to give the badly outclassed, gunned and dated (for the time) Spanish an even shot.

But your miniatures look Great! If life would stop interfering, I would have WTJ Rapid Prototype predreadnaught ships by the dozen by now.