gorenut | 14 Nov 2013 10:01 a.m. PST |
I've been playing GW games forever so everything is second nature to me
but teaching other players the system has shown me how cumbersome it can be. I'm curious if anyone has found ways to convert Mordheim and Warhammer combat into potentially only 1 or 2 rolls and even better if its opposed rolls. Having dabbled in games like SOBH has really gotten me to like opposed rolls rather than "I hit you, now you hit me" – seems like the main thing that needs to be done is find a way to combine strength and WS into 1 stat and toughness + armor in another. Of course there is also the case of initiative. Then there is the case of points value that might have to be changed due to this.. not that we're strict with points (for example, we use any WHFB within reason in Mordheim by just multiplying the points by 5 in the army book). |
religon | 14 Nov 2013 10:16 a.m. PST |
LOTR SBG reduces it to 2 dice rolls. The first is an opposed d6 (typically 1 or 2 dice; take the higher). Ties are resolved through a "Fight" value, like WS in WFB. The winner of the opposed roll then roll to wound factoring in the attackers Strength and the losers Defense (merged Toughness + Armor from WFB). Most wounds slay 1 hp regular warriors. |
Zargon | 14 Nov 2013 10:19 a.m. PST |
Watch out for EE dude they might call a cease and desist on you for thinking clearly about their clunky rules ;-) |
gorenut | 14 Nov 2013 10:23 a.m. PST |
religon: that may be an option for me. Seems more manageable. I'd just have to find a way to properly convert WS to an opposed and still make the probability about the same so I don't have to even muck around with the points at all. |
timlillig | 14 Nov 2013 10:34 a.m. PST |
There are tons of games out there that have those types of systems. The Games Workshop games are based on earlier games like those by Don Featherstone. His systems are pretty commonly imitated. GW was not the first or last to make their own variation on that recipe. I'm sorry I'm not giving a specific example, there are too many to list and I forget which game has which variation. |
Razor78 | 14 Nov 2013 10:37 a.m. PST |
I've been playing around with using a 1 die roll D20 system where attacks are rated 1-20, with 1 being the best attack, and defense is rated 20-1, with 20 being the worst defense. You basically roll a D20 that has to fall in between the two numbers. So if my attack is a 7 and their defense is a 10 then I have to roll an 8 or 9. But if my attack is a 1 and their defense a 14 then I have to roll a 2-13. |
CorpCommander | 14 Nov 2013 10:48 a.m. PST |
Just start rolling dice. First to roll a 6 wins. What? Now it's too simple and streamlined? |
gorenut | 14 Nov 2013 11:10 a.m. PST |
My goal is to find a way to (as) painlessly (as possible)convert Warhammer/Mordheim stats accomplish the same with less rolls. Main reason is I'm applying it to skirmish games. |
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 14 Nov 2013 11:19 a.m. PST |
Take a look at CR 3.0 and Swordplay our free intro games. link Opposed rolls has been used in THW since 1998. |
gorenut | 14 Nov 2013 11:28 a.m. PST |
Hi Ed. Already tried Warrior Heroes. While a great system, its not quite what I'm looking for. Our group really enjoys playing fantasy races and each one having distinct stats. |
Lupulus | 14 Nov 2013 11:40 a.m. PST |
If speeding things up is the goal, I doubt opposed rolls is the way to go – the only reason I can think of for having both sides roll is a feeling of participation. The old epic rules used at most two rolls. Each attack has a to-hit value (like 3+) and a save modifier. If the attack hits, the target is removed unless its owner succeds with its save roll (if it has one) modified by the save mod. Infantry typically doesn't have a save, so if a stand is hit, it is removed. If you want to replicate the results from warhammer and mordheim, you will have to start calculating probabilities. A Mordheim example: A model shoots at another assuming it hits on 5+, that's 1/3 chance to hit. Then, assuming 4+ to wound and a 6+ save, you have 1/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 5/36, ie about 14% chance to wound. Then you have 1/3 chance to either knock down, stun or kill. If you change a single parameter, the probabilities will change, but since they are all multiplied, you can't simply add or subtract from the final number. Then mix in the ws/ws table and special abilities and the fact that strength modifies armour save and and and
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religon | 14 Nov 2013 11:55 a.m. PST |
I'd just have to find a way to properly convert WS to an opposed and still make the probability about the same so I don't have to even muck around with the points at all. It couldn't be done very precisely with LOTR SBG. It would be a tall order in any case if by "properly" you want the combat resolution to be within 5% to 10% of the WFB chances. (If the math in WFB suggests that 15 Night Goblins with spears prevail against 8 dwarf warriors 40% of the time, without massive efforts, the opposed system would have those odds as high as 60% or as low as 20%. Different units would benefit and others would suffer.) Opposed rolls can speed up games by consolidating procedures, but it is impossibly hard to match probabilities as complex as WFB with a straightforward pair of dice rolls. Your point values provided by GW on units would be unacceptably inaccurate and need to be redesigned. |
gorenut | 14 Nov 2013 11:59 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the input so far guys. I forgot to mention that I'm not playing games on a huge battle scale. I'm sticking to skirmish games.. so it'll be a model to model basis. |
Sgt Slag | 14 Nov 2013 1:35 p.m. PST |
It is much easier to adopt another, specifically skirmish-based system, than to rehash a mass battles rule system. Shop around for a good fantasy skirmish rules set, and adapt your mini's to its system. That will be much easier than bashing the mass battles GW rules to a skirmish set. There is another thread currently running on TMP, asking for folks recommendations on a fantasy skirmish rules set. Check that for ideas on what might work for your group. Cheers! |
gorenut | 14 Nov 2013 1:41 p.m. PST |
I guess the main reason why I considered it is because we already play Mordheim. Essentially we're trying to make that process smoother and since they share stats with Warhammer, it'd also allow us to convert any of the models from that as well. Ultimately, I think you're correct. Just throwing it out there to see if anyone has already done it. |
Mithmee | 14 Nov 2013 2:39 p.m. PST |
The thing about WFB is that with the new rule changes it is now just a big huge "bucket of dice" game. Take a unit of 50 High Spearman that is ranked in a 10x5 formation. It gets charged by a unit of 30 Orks in a 6x5 formation and the maximum number of troops are fighting. The High Elf player will be rolling a ton of dice. It won't be all 50 but it will be around 40 of them. Far to many freaking dice because with the current rules they will hit with around 30+ of them and then they need to roll to wound. No what needs to happen is limit the size of each unit and then come up with a set number of dice that each uses in combat. Like 1 dice for every five models, 1 dice for Champion, 2 dice for Hero, 3 dice for Warlord (oh and a unit can only have one type of character in it). Also use a different color dice for the character since they can fight better. For example High Elves can't have more than 25 models per unit. So if a Unit has 25 models and has a Hero. Then that unit gets 5 dice when fighting plus 2 for a Hero for a total of 7 dice. It fights that same Ork unit of 30 (since they are Orks they can have more) and it has the Ork Warload in it. So it gets 6 dice and another 3 for the Warlord so a total of 9 dice. So the Elves get 6 dice and the Orks gets 8 dice. Oh and I prefer d20's over d6's. Each side roll and if they get hits then they kill that many of the other side. Fighting happens at the same time. In this fight the Orks are at the advantage since they outnumber the Elves 9 dice to 7 dice plus they have the Warlord in it. So the max number of models that the Orks can kill is 9 and the Elves can get 7. Plus if you hit a unit in the Flank that can be another 2 dice and if in the rear another 4 dice. So if that unit of Orks had charged the Elves in the Rank the number of dice would be 11 to 7. Or if the Elves were attacked in the Front and also in the Flank by another unit of 25 Orks with Champion the number of dice would be 17 – 7. Yes the Elves would be sucking wind if that happens. |
CorpCommander | 14 Nov 2013 2:44 p.m. PST |
OK I'll be serious for a second. The issue is that you need data from attacker and target: Attacker: Weapon Skill, Strength, Attacks Target: Toughness Then you need modifiers due to situation. Roll to hit, roll to damage and roll to save. That is simply how it is modeled. However, a simplification would be to classify targets into types that are easy to discern or are just known. Fully armored fighter or lightly armored Ogre are both heavy infantry for example. Then you'd have the attacker's effectiveness against such a target. Then it's just one roll with data for types of attacks against types of targets. Since Mordheim already requires a card for each fighter and you rarely have more than a dozen fighters it shouldn't be too cumbersome. Just my $0.02 USD |
Mithmee | 14 Nov 2013 8:40 p.m. PST |
True, but GW sure has made WFB cumbersome. Take that unit of 50 High Elf Spearmen and face them off against 60 Goblin Spearmen and both are ranked in a horde formation 10x5 and 10x6. Well the High Elf player will be rolling 50 d6's and since they are High Elves they will get to reroll any misses. So that is around 15-20 dice again. Then they have to roll to wound so if they hit with 42 dice they will roll that many dice to wound. So all total they would have rolled somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-110 dice and that was just to hit and wound. Then the Goblin player gets to roll his bucket of dice. Yup, that sure is a fun way to play. Because WFB is nothing but a bucket of dice game. New players have actually commented that all they did during the game is do nothing but roll dice. Now using what I posted above that unit of 50 High Elves with Hero would only roll 12 dice
So do you want the game to be nothing but a bucket of dice or Would you rather have the game have a bit more tactics in it. Your choice 110 dice or 12 dice. Plus I would never allow Elves to field a unit of 50 Spearmen. 25 max to include characters which you can only have one of in the unit. So no Deathstar units with General, BSB, Hero and Champion smashing everything in it path. I have seen reports of several armies that were built around one Deathstar unit and a few other units. Like that Tomb King unit of 90 Archers with Special Character which had both poison and fire attacks. All he did was point that unit at his opponents Deathstar and shoot it to pieces rolling "bucket of dice". Once their opponent's Deathstar was taken care all that was left was to mop up. It would have never worked against me because I don't run Deathstars and prefer a MSU approach. |
snurl1 | 14 Nov 2013 10:53 p.m. PST |
While playing Mordheim we roll for Initiative after each turn, similar to LOTR. Everyone seems to like it. |
Mardaddy | 15 Nov 2013 6:58 a.m. PST |
One of the reasons I preferred VOID and it's stat/roll mechanics. Everything is based off d10's and the target roll being the difference subtracted between 10 and the stat. If your shooting skill is 4, you need a 6+ to hit. There is a matrix for comparing weapon power vs toughness, but again you end up with a target number between 1-10, so subtract that from 10 and you have your needed roll. Cover saves are minimal to prevent pure defensive play, and no armor saves unless you are TRULY in *heavy* armor. Brilliant in its simplicity for teaching new – even very young – players, because math subtracting from 10 is just plain second nature. CELTOS was the fantasy component to VOID, using the same d10-only mechanic. But they made the error of using a font in printing the rulebook that made it a tad difficult to read through quickly, so
yea. |
Lupulus | 15 Nov 2013 10:11 a.m. PST |
The Void system can be simplified even further by skipping the conversion from stat to roll, either by writing the stat as 6+ (instead of 4) or simply rolling lower than or equal to the skill (ie rolling low instead of high, counting 0 on the d10 as 0), and defining defensive stats as pure modifications to the relevant rolls. The Celtos rulebook was for a while available as a free "printer-friendly" pdf, but it was reader-friendly as well since it didn't use the fancy font for most of the text. Scribd seems to have a version of the pdf but I don't know the legality of it. |
Wolfprophet | 15 Nov 2013 10:42 a.m. PST |
Could just be me, but I've never had issues with the stats and play
it's just all the excessive special rules and exceptions that make the game cumbersome at times. |
Mithmee | 15 Nov 2013 1:30 p.m. PST |
"Could just be me, but I've never had issues with the stats and play
it's just all the excessive special rules and exceptions that make the game cumbersome at times." That and the "bucket of dice" rolling. Sure is fun to roll 200-300+ dice each turn. Which I can easy do with my Ork & Goblin army. Actually I could end up rolling nearly 400 dice in one turn, I field around 300+ Goblins most of them armed with Short Bows then another 125 or more Orks. So you need to come up with a way to limit the number of dice. You can still use stats but limit the number of dice. Because quite frankly – no one likes playing a game where all they do is roll dice. |
gorenut | 15 Nov 2013 1:52 p.m. PST |
So I think what we've gathered here is Mithmee hates buckets of dice, rolling them, and Warhammer. |
Bombshell Games | 15 Nov 2013 2:30 p.m. PST |
gorenut I'll be releasing a fantasy skirmish game that uses a system very similar to the one that is found in MAYHEM. It should check all your boxes. Until then, you could pretty easily use the basic profiles and unit construction tools found in the game to accomplish what you're trying to do. |
gorenut | 15 Nov 2013 3:17 p.m. PST |
That sounds interesting.. Anywhere I can get a preview or demo version of the rules so I can see how the mechanics work? |
Mithmee | 15 Nov 2013 5:44 p.m. PST |
"So I think what we've gathered here is Mithmee hates buckets of dice, rolling them, and Warhammer." Yes but I did play WFB & 40K for over a decade before GW decided that it was better to put out lousy rules that have no balance to them. Oh and before they decided that yearly price hikes was the way to go with their pricing. Now they have decided that putting out over priced models is the thing. Oh and since I hate "bucket of dice" games I hate FoW as well. |
Bombshell Games | 16 Nov 2013 12:11 p.m. PST |
That sounds interesting.. Anywhere I can get a preview or demo version of the rules so I can see how the mechanics work? Send me your email address.;) |
M C MonkeyDew | 16 Nov 2013 12:28 p.m. PST |
I know Ed has already chime in on this thread. However
Warrior Heroes: Armies and Adventures includes a large battle system that I designed to use only one set of opposed rolls
usually around 2 to 6 dice per side depending on circumstances, to resolve combat between any two bodies of troops of any strength. Bob |
gorenut | 16 Nov 2013 5:23 p.m. PST |
Mithmee.. yea, kind of in the same boat. Played Warhammer since the 90s. Just can't keep up with the scale and prices anymore. I only stick to skirmish games which is why I'm asking around here. However, don't want to turn this whole thread into a GW bashing thread. I still have fond memories of the hobby that was started in my life by them. Bombshell, dunno how to email you, but its rad_slug at hotmail dot com |
Bombshell Games | 17 Nov 2013 9:40 a.m. PST |
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gorenut | 17 Nov 2013 12:34 p.m. PST |
Awesome, as mentioned in the email, I'll definitely check it out as soon as I get the time. Always a big fan of discovering new rules. |