Halvdan | 29 Oct 2013 2:29 p.m. PST |
Aventine figures and others come to mind when I wonder about this current propensity to enlarge the heads on figures. Aventine are beautifully sculpted figures, but with IMHO overexaggerated head and hand sizes. They fall into the all too prevalent style these days of huge bubble-headed figures. We all love to look at (and paint) the highly detailed heads and helmets of our favorite armies but how about with closer to normal proportions. I feel like I'm viewing a cartoon too often. Along with generally being too big overall some times they are noticably too wide. if one looks at a humand head straight on, one will notice that it is narrower that way. Looking down on the top of our heads we see that it is very oval shaped, not as round as it is many times portrayed. I know that many of these exaggerations are for ease of painting, but at what cost to realism ? |
smacdowall | 29 Oct 2013 2:38 p.m. PST |
I agree. And it is not just the heads. So many figures these days just seem cartoonish to me. It is a shame as the sculptors clearly have great skill. That said some manufacturers seem to manage more elegant and better proportioned figures. |
gameorpaint | 29 Oct 2013 3:00 p.m. PST |
Actually, I believe the trend is more towards realistic proportions than it's ever been. Computer aided design, prototyping, tool making, and manufacturing seem to be helping this as much as anything. There's less reason for the sculptors to say "bigger = more detail". With current materials, odd proportions are often as much a concession to durability as anything else. If you had realistically scaled and proportioned rifles, they'd break too easily. This is an old discussion. If you were worrying about "realism", eyes painted on a 28mm figure would be very nearly a dot. |
Cherno | 29 Oct 2013 3:50 p.m. PST |
I agree. Every time I see a 3D render preview of an upcoming miniature I think "gee, no oversized heads and hands!" |
Smiling Hetairoi | 29 Oct 2013 3:56 p.m. PST |
I find the miniatures to be quite cute. |
Lion in the Stars | 29 Oct 2013 5:35 p.m. PST |
This is an old discussion. If you were worrying about "realism", eyes painted on a 28mm figure would be very nearly a dot. At 3' away, invisible is more like it. A 28mm tall mini 3 feet away is the same visual size as a 5'8" man 65 yards away. You can't see the eyes of a white man at that distance. You can with a person of African descent or other very dark skinned folks. 'Heroic' scale minis let the makers go cheap on their sculptors. |
Augie the Doggie | 29 Oct 2013 6:22 p.m. PST |
There are a few figure ranges that have realistic proportions in their figures
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oldbob | 30 Oct 2013 7:29 a.m. PST |
I know it's all personal taste, but I've never thought of Aventine miniatures as bubble headed. When I look at them all I see is beautiful exquisitely detailed War Game Figures! |
Halvdan | 30 Oct 2013 8:44 a.m. PST |
"If you were worrying about "realism", eyes painted on a 28mm figure would be very nearly a dot"
as to this point, I dont paint in the eyes. I let the washed over paint that settles into relief created by the sculptor create the eyes for me. And sometimes, just as you say, a dot of darkish color does the trick. I can handle odd proportioned implements just not the most important part
the head! These little figures are not meant to be, in my opinion, Japanese anime characters or Disney cartoons, but representations of actual mature humans. Babies have these big heads not adults. Having said my gripe
There do seem to be some companies that are offering better proportions. I hope it grows
(the trend not the head size) I'm just disapointed that Aventine's beautiful detail is orchestrated on oversized heads. (I'm not just singling out Aventine). Another thought
It has occured to me that maybe some of the problem lies in the process of buuilding up layers of modeling putty. The head is sculpted and then the helmet is added. Because it is hard to add very thin realist layers of putty , the head when helmet is applied becomes too big. This phenomenon also occurs with added accoutrements like scale armor (Persian horse face protectors), harnesses and other elements like capes added to figures over top of their already sculpted armor. The sculptor IMHO needs to realize that he or she can't always build from the inside out. The bulky nature of putty should inform the sculptor to rethink this additive proceedure. to Augie the Doggie.. whose beautiful (I'm assuming Napoleanic) figure is that?! That's what I'm looking for (in ancients)! |
BigRedBat | 30 Oct 2013 8:45 a.m. PST |
At the end of the day, it all comes down to a matter of personal taste. I like the heft of the larger ranges, including Foundry, Black Tree, Aventines and A&A. But I also have more than a few Perry miniatures
in separate armies. |
Emperorbaz | 30 Oct 2013 1:22 p.m. PST |
Although the perry figures are indeed far more realistically proportioned, it also means the detail is less pronounced, and IMHO, it makes these figures harder to paint. 10 years from now we will all be 3D printing our own wargames figures based on scans of ourselves dressed in army gear and they will all be perfectly proportioned. That is provided we are perfectly proportioned to start with, which thinking about it, I am not. |
smacdowall | 30 Oct 2013 2:19 p.m. PST |
"If you were worrying about "realism", eyes painted on a 28mm figure would be very nearly a dot"
as to this point, I dont paint in the eyes. I let the washed over paint that settles into relief created by the sculptor create the eyes for me. And sometimes, just as you say, a dot of darkish color does the trick I completely agree. There was a time I painted eyes and despite my best efforts they always ended with the dreaded 'bug-eyed' stare! If you look at a man from a few yards away the eyes are dark. A fine brown line with washed over paint to settle in the socket is far more realistic and gives a much better effect than actually painting in the eyes. Although the perry figures are indeed far more realistically proportioned, it also means the detail is less pronounced, and IMHO, it makes these figures harder to paint If you use a white undercoat with a series of washes then properly proportioned figures like the Perrys' are actually easier to paint than the over blown detail of the likes of Aventine. Perhaps the cartoonish proportions could be directly related to the popularity of black undercoating and dry brushing which requires protruding detail to be effective. In the end it is all a matter of personal taste. |
colin knight | 31 Oct 2013 2:33 a.m. PST |
I have come full circle on this one. I do indeed like realistic proportions. But when at 2 feet distance they look less impressive on the eye. I felt Aventine too bulky from pictures. But when you see in the flesh they are too good to resist and are quite simply visually more impressive than skinnier models as give more for your money. Very slim 28mm sculpts look like 20mm. Also many have 1000s of Foundry style sculpts and new ranges need to blend in IMHO. With new ranges I want to add to what I have not completely change all my armies. |
Mithridates | 31 Oct 2013 2:27 p.m. PST |
As Simon and others say, matter of personal taste. 28mm eyes on generals and sometimes command groups only, otherwise brown slash. Have painted a fair few Aventines and have found they come up very well, latest being some of their elephants/crew. I use an off white undercoat, then couple of coats with a light/strong tone wash to finish. Looking forward to their 2014 Successor releases. I do like a mix of manufacturers – Aventine, Relic, Gorgon, Foundry, Essex, Hinchliffe, Tin Soldier and some Lancashire Games (Dacians). Have even mixed in Plastics!!!! My real gripe with newer figures is they make my earlier Minifigs look like 10 year olds! Garry |
T Meier | 01 Nov 2013 6:06 a.m. PST |
"at 2 feet distance they look less impressive on the eye" I think it depends what you are used to.To me this looks right and very impressive:
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Halvdan | 01 Nov 2013 8:33 a.m. PST |
to smac
I think you might have something with your observation about the popularity of painting over black primer using the dry brush tecnique. This would work better it does seem with larger appendages and proportions
needless to say I am a white primer guy. To Smiling Hetairoi
they are kinda "cute" in their child-like proportions
less violence inducing and threatening than the real life killing machines that they represent. Maybe subconsciously this softens our anxiety about devoting so much time to such a war-death related subject
said half jokingly
cause i love my little soldiers. p.s
I do have a lot of the larger proportioned figures and enjoy their "representational not literal" intent. As Bigred Bat said just in different armies! |
Smiling Hetairoi | 01 Nov 2013 12:20 p.m. PST |
They might be killing machines but they're my little killing machines ;) |
oldbob | 02 Nov 2013 1:55 p.m. PST |
Dan I'm taking a wild guess here, are you a Paleolab Manager? |
Halvdan | 03 Nov 2013 10:02 a.m. PST |
Bob
As a matter of fact, yes I am. Dinosaurs by day and miniatures by night ! |
oldbob | 03 Nov 2013 10:39 a.m. PST |
Dan, From reading your posts,it was obvious your educated and a lot more critical about anatomy than most of us are! Dan make his living putting Bone puzzles together and if He doesn't have all the pieces, He's allowed to make the missing piece's! Welcome to the Ancient Boards! |
axabrax | 06 Nov 2013 7:54 a.m. PST |
Aventine miniatures look fine to me. In fact, I see them as a successor to Copplestone. I think this particular complaint always stems from a lack of imagination. Miniatures are stylized artwork not photographs. I always felt that the idea that the only good miniature is one that exactly matches what you see in objective reality is prosaic and antithetical to the function of art. I would recommend taking an art history class to see if you can broaden your expectations a little bit. And yes, miniatures are in fact art. It takes quite a bit of artistic skill to sculpt a miniature by hand. And if you look at what people do with the painting there's no question about it. |
smacdowall | 06 Nov 2013 8:28 a.m. PST |
I would recommend taking an art history class to see if you can broaden your expectations a little bit. A rather patronising sentiment. I personally use a painterly style with my figures and view what I do as art. link Personally I much prefer more anatomically correct figures and find Smurf-like miniatures not to my taste. But it is a matter of taste and not a lack of imagination. |
Halvdan | 06 Nov 2013 11:44 a.m. PST |
I just received my order from Aventine and I just don't see them as being as good as Perry , Saleh, Sims or Copplestone. I was raised in an artistic family
both parents being modern artists and I graduted with a fine arts degree in drawing, painting and sculpture from a well regarded university, have an overabundance of creative imagination, and do certainly engage the visual poetry of our hobby, but I just don't see the attention to anatomical detail that I see to textural detail. Some of the heads are sculpted wider than they are deep, and the legs (thighs in particular) are gimpy (lower legs are thicker than upper legs
and that ain't right)and on cavalry are out of alignment with the upper body (set too wide creating a gap between leg and horse)
IMHO. If the anatomy underneath all of that tremendous detail is too quirky then all that detail to me doesn't matter. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the heroic-poetic proportions of Saleh, Copplestone and Sims, but I have a difficult time settling for some of the other current sculptors' inabiluity or unwillingness to execute some basic relational proportions
I'm talking basic anatomy. It can be exaggerated a bit for poetic-representational effect but not at the expense of certain realities
thighs are bigger than calfs, heads are deeper than wide. There
I've said it
Sorry for the rant, I think I just had to clarify my views and thoughts ( more for myself than you folks) on the subject of my favorite little people! Be well all. p.s. one of these days I'll put up some pics of my sculpting efforts and you can critique me
only fair :) |
oldbob | 06 Nov 2013 1:11 p.m. PST |
Dan; if really don't like Aventine Miniature,why are you buying them? Their so many other Manufactures to chose from! |
Halvdan | 06 Nov 2013 3:33 p.m. PST |
a little too demonstrative in the title of this thread perhaps
as I guess I was disappointed in a potentially tremendous new line of miniatures; that also fills a gap in the availability market
early Italians and Etruscans !! Other than this historical niche, I already have most of the available ancients by my facvorite sculptors (Perrys, Saleh, Copplestone and Sims). When Aventines came to my attention (on TMP of course) I looked on line first and thought I'd purchase some to see-in-hand. I enjoy seeing what's out there in the ancient miniature's world
and in truth I love Aventine's detail!! I will still probably purchase some more Aventines (those Italian Hill Tribes are just too tempting with their glorious helmets
even if a little too much) and maybe if time allows I'll adapt some or maybe just enjoy them as is. p.s. hmmm, I think I need to get in-hand some of the ancient biblical minis offered by Immortal and Cutting Edge. It looks as though they are sculpted as a slimmer figure. Most likely when all is said and done I'll end up enjoying both of these differing approaches to miniature sculpting and collecting
some figures will be poetic and some prosaic !!! |
oldbob | 06 Nov 2013 3:46 p.m. PST |
I'm in the process of painting Italian Hill Tribes now. They will be added to my brother-law's Republican Army! |