SidtheSingh | 28 Oct 2013 7:27 p.m. PST |
I may be missing something very obvious, but it seems nearly impossible to kill anything in the game. If I understand correctly, the attacker has to roll 2x the defender
which seems nearly impossible. In the last game, my son and I did nothing but recoil and knockdown, which got boring pretty fast. Am I missing something glaringly obvious? Thanks! |
Crankee Doodle | 28 Oct 2013 8:03 p.m. PST |
Did you use any of these modifiers? Outnumbered: -1 to the opponent's C score per every adjacent model above the first Attacking a transfixed or fallen foe: +2, blow is Lethal Performing a power blow (2 actions): -1 on the opponent's C score These make a big difference. |
Pedrobear | 28 Oct 2013 8:03 p.m. PST |
It depends on the troop types you are using. With C2 figures, if one rolls a 1, the other one can kill it on a 4 to 6, i.e. 1/12 chance of that happening. With C4 figures, if one figure rolled a 1, the other figure needs to roll a 6 to double his score, i.e. 1/36 chances of that happening. To increase the chances of killing a figure, you need to gang up on him, use 2 activations to strike one blow (powerful strike), or get him while he is fallen. |
SidtheSingh | 28 Oct 2013 9:07 p.m. PST |
Okay. That is what I thought. I did use the modifiers when applicable. Seems like we were playing it right. That is unfortunate, in a way, as I was hoping that it was my errors that were causing a sense of tedium to the game. |
Double W | 28 Oct 2013 10:46 p.m. PST |
Once an opponent is fallen, it is pretty easy to kill. You only need to beat it by a single point in combat. What you're describing is an instant kill (2x or 3x the opponents combat roll), which is supposed to be uncommon. That said, I've never played a game where at least one figure doubled its opponents combat roll. |
Pedrobear | 28 Oct 2013 11:45 p.m. PST |
I had that just the other day. My dwarves, fleeing from a troll, are stuck in melee against some goblins in a narrow passage – the melee fighters are unable to kill off the goblins, which outnumbered them, and the archers behind are unable to shoot into melee. Finally, one dwarf rolled a 6 + C4 -1 (outnumbered) = 9 vs the goblin's 1 + C2 = 3. Gruesome Death. The other goblins fled in terror and were cut down, allowing the dwarves to move on. True Story. link |
Goober | 29 Oct 2013 3:43 a.m. PST |
The important thing to remember is that some of the mods come off the defenders C score, instead of adding to the attackers. A -1 to defenders C is better for an attacker than +1 to their C. Dropping the defnders C from 3 to 2 means you've dropped the kill number from a 6 to a 4. G. |
elsyrsyn | 29 Oct 2013 5:41 a.m. PST |
As noted, it seems to me that the trick to killing the enemy is to seek out situations where all attacks are lethal, and those in which combat modifiers come off of the opponent's score instead of adding to yours. Gang up on 'em and kick 'em when they're down. Doug |
paul liddle | 29 Oct 2013 8:40 a.m. PST |
Also if you are using models with high combat numbers (4's and 5's)it will be hard to double them. Keep the higher numbers for your characters and the minions as 2's and 3's. It is a good rule set, don't give up on it. |
Mako11 | 29 Oct 2013 9:29 a.m. PST |
"Gang up on 'em and kick 'em when they're down". How unsporting, and uncivilized. Perhaps we should write some "rules of war" to prevent that
. |
skinkmasterreturns | 29 Oct 2013 1:06 p.m. PST |
Its been awhile since I've played,but I seem to recall a bow armed figure knocking down an opponent and then a foot figure running in to dispatch him. |
Noldor42 | 29 Oct 2013 1:24 p.m. PST |
When you consistently roll "1's", it's sadly easy for the opponent to kill you
|
Marshal Mark | 29 Oct 2013 2:06 p.m. PST |
In the last game, my son and I did nothing but recoil and knockdown, And did no-one ever attack a figure that was knocked down ? That's the main way you get kills in this game. |
Ranger322 | 30 Oct 2013 7:43 a.m. PST |
Also consider using the Magic-user's "transfix" or the "entangle" ability, both of which render the character very vulnerable. The Assassin personality and the "lethal vs X" ability are both helpful as well. My son and I have played a good bit, and it usually turns into a slaughter within 30 minutes
But my main warband is built with only five characters, four of which have C scores or either 4 or 5. They can bring the pain!! |
SidtheSingh | 30 Oct 2013 10:31 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the feedback. Given the comments, I don't think this is the rule set for me. The combat feels tedious and bland. I was hoping I was just playing wrong. Ah well. Time to continue my search for a generic skirmish fantasy rule set. |
elsyrsyn | 30 Oct 2013 12:57 p.m. PST |
I'd give it a few more whirls, and fiddle with the C ratings a bit before calling it a non-starter. "Gang up on 'em and kick 'em when they're down".How unsporting, and uncivilized. But of course! Doug |
Andy Skinner | 31 Oct 2013 9:20 a.m. PST |
There are definitely different strokes for different folks, but I sure don't get tedious or bland out of this one. I find this game, as a game, to be much more interesting than others I've tried. I've tried some games, or written my own, that I thought had all the parts you'd expect from a miniatures game, but which in practice ended up being die-rolling exercises. I find SoBH to be a nail-biter, and very active in trying to get combats to go your way. Swarm the big guy. Use power blow. Knock 'em down, and hit 'em again. Will you get the activations to make that happen? Find out! That doesn't mean you have to see it the same way, but I find tedious a surprising assessment for these rules. andy |
Funnymouth | 31 Oct 2013 11:39 a.m. PST |
tedious? most people have the exact opposite complaint. my games tend to be short and very bloody, being decided in only a few very tactical moves. doubling and tripling often happens multiple times per game, though "fallen" kills are the standard. often it is over by turn three. in any conflict (real or simulated) the best way to win is to exploit asymmetrical engagements. outnumber, outflank, beaters vs weenies, assassinate leaders, force difficult activations, ambush etc. don't line up evenly matched guys and stand there. it is a tactical game, meaning you have to use tactics to do well. once you do you will find combat to be very, very dangerous. maybe if you shared some specifics we could give you feedback, such as what forces and tactics you are using? |
ordinarybass | 31 Oct 2013 12:08 p.m. PST |
SidtheSingh, I'm hesitant to jump in with the same comments as others, but our group has also found SBH to be the opposite of Tedious. We've got about 3 years of playing it so far and it just keeps delivering. As has been said, the keys are. -hitting them when they're down -Ganging up on your enemies (very important) -Maneuvering correctly in order to maximize the above two. I'd definitely recommend giving SBH another shot, with an experienced player if you can find one. However if it doesn't float your boat, there are other options out there. Skulldredd still has a pre-publication edition out. It didn't do it for me, but YMMV. There's also, Fanticide, which is roughly the same level of complexity. Ares is another one. Lastly, it's not generic, but Reaper's Warlord has so many different units that you can use it for just about any fantasy creature. For the record, I have not played Fanticide, Ares or Warlord, though I did acquire the books and read through them a few times when looking for rulesets that would accommodate a few more figures than SBH. In the end I just went all the way to mass battle fantasy and started playing KoW. |
SidtheSingh | 01 Nov 2013 4:17 p.m. PST |
As I noted, it may simply be we are doing something wrong. Unfortunately, there is no one in my area who plays (this is Privateer Press & GW country). I used PP's warmachine line of miniatures for the game. The names we gave are arbitrary and just to keep track of things. My "Army" Witch Hunter: Q2; C5 (cleric, good shot, leader, shoot:medium) Red Jack: Q3; C4 (shooter: short; steadfast, unerring aim) Black Hood: Q3; C4 (legendary shot, shooter:medium; stealth, unerring aim) Riflemen (four models all the same): Q4; C3 (shooter: long) Orc Gunner Q5; C3 (Big, good shot, legendary shot, shooter: long, slow) My Son's "army" Lord Pendrake: Q2; C4 (combat master, entangle, leader, shooter:medium) Nathan Pendrake: Q3; C4 (Shooter:medium, unerring aim) Orc Bodyguard: Q4; C4 (big, heavy armor, steadfast) Drow Hunters (4 models all the same): Q4; C4 (Shooter:long, stealth, good shot) We played on a 4x4 board with about 8-10 pieces of terrain. With regard to the tedious comment, I think we both felt that way because the vast majority of the time all that was happening was characters fell down or they recoiled away. Most fights were 1 on 1 or 2 against one. I ended up never using the cleric ability and he never used the entangle or combat master abilities as they never seemed to come into play. Anyway, thoughts are always welcome! P.S. – I also don't like that all the special rules are scattered across multiple publications without a comprehensive document that summarizes them all for in-game reference (I'd even pay for one). |
squirmydad | 01 Nov 2013 7:46 p.m. PST |
I might have an angle on your problem: Shooters are not very effective in SBH. They're good for support but the real damage is caused by the heavy hitters in melee or groups swarming individuals. Their modern set, Flying Lead, is very lethal in regards to ranged combat. Yeah, the rules diffusion is a bit irksome. |
SidtheSingh | 01 Nov 2013 8:43 p.m. PST |
can SBH and Flying lead be used together? I do want a game that has a balance between shooting and melee as I am primarily interested in something to use it for my warmachine figures. |
Ralph Plowman | 03 Nov 2013 1:06 p.m. PST |
I would suggest lowering your combat scores a notch or 2 too. We tend to use 2s and 3s with maybe the odd, very rare, 4 Our games have plenty of kills and swing back and forth to the end. They always seem to be close run things, a very well balanced game. Try it. |
timlillig | 04 Nov 2013 7:24 p.m. PST |
I would suggest you use more figures with worse stats. I find that SBH is less interesting with too many elites. As you noticed, fights between elites become nearly impossible to resolve. a one on one fight between two C4 figures has a 1:36 chance of a kill. A C5 figure can not be killed in a one on one fight without some other factor coming into play. As for compiling the rules, you could make a sheet of the rules you are using for a game by cutting and pasting the text from the PDFs. |
Whitwort Stormbringer | 05 Nov 2013 2:17 p.m. PST |
I'll echo some others here, basic troopers should probably only be combat 2, maybe combat 1 for particularly poor troops like goblins. 3's and 4's should be reserved for heroes, commanders, monsters, and the like, or particularly skilled troops like elves. I don't even bother with Combat 5, unless it's a dragon or something. If the play experience you want is range heavy, though, then I'd suggest flying lead instead of SBH. Weapons have individual combat bonuses, which puts shooters at an inherent advantage over their targets (who only get their normal combat bonus when rolling in defense), and therefore encourages strategic use of cover or lying prone to avoid damage. Weapon ranges are for the most part effectively unlimited, with penalties to the attacker kicking in at longer ranges. A weapon's "range" is either short, medium, or long, and range penalties are incurred starting at >2x that range, so for example a medium range weapon will suffer no penalty if firing at a target that is within 2 medium sticks, then starts incurring negative modifiers to the attack roll after that. Some weapons have a maximum range, but that's relatively uncommon. By making shooting deadlier, though, melee models are considerably less effective due to their increased chances of getting shot to pieces before they make it in close. I don't know too much about the Iron Kingdoms setting, but if you still want melee units to play a significant role in the game then I think you'd have to beef them up, by comparison. I think the two could probably be used together, just replace the shooting rules in SBH with the cost of ranged weapons in Flying Lead. Perhaps consider giving melee models a slight Combat boost, or body armor, to help them survive the rush into combat. |
Andy Skinner | 06 Nov 2013 8:47 a.m. PST |
I don't like devaluing shooters as much as SoBH does, so I give all shooters Unerring Aim, which reduces penalties for shooting at range. Those penalties seem extreme to me. It seems dumb for a goblin with a bow to have Unerring Aim, but for me, it is just a rules modification, with built-in point increase for shooters to balance. Shooters still feel not too powerful in with this change. When a shooter gets a push-back result, it is particularly unimpressive. In combat, you can accomplish something (reducing odds for another combat with touching figures, for example), but with shooting, you just move them a tad. Eh. andy |
Ganesha Games | 08 Nov 2013 9:08 a.m. PST |
I suggest you guys try the concentrated shooting rule. |
Andy Skinner | 08 Nov 2013 11:31 a.m. PST |
Concentrated shooting doesn't feel right for the scale to me. My opinion, of course, just like my desire for bows to be more "first class" than SoBH intends. andy |
HarryHotspurEsq | 09 Nov 2013 4:49 a.m. PST |
In Song of Shadows and Dust shooting handled slightly differently. Shooting at double/triple range isn't penalised as much (so all models effectively have the Unerring Aim skill built in as suggested by Andy Skinner). Also, because the ranged weapons are fairly limited to bows, slings and javelins, each type has extra traits which differentiates it from the others. Bows get a +1, slings are more likely to knock people down, javelins allow a short move and shoot for the same action. |