"French 8pdr field gun" Topic

I was wondering how common this gun was as I was of the understanding that it was the standard field gun in the Div Btys but after a discussion with a friend and looking in some ORBATs it doesn't appear so.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers
Stan

It is important what date are you looking at. After 1805, the 4-pdr and 8-pdr started to be phased out. By 1808, most had been replaced by the newer AnXI 6-pdr. Most of the 8-pdrs in Spain were Spanish Gribeauval. No 8-pdrs were used post 1810 by the French except a few example in 1814 in emergency.
Stephen

Thank you very much Stephen, I will now get some 6-pdr for my French as well my army is mainly 1809.

Stanley

The Army of Germany still employed the 8-pounder through the campaign of 1809.

The following data may be of some help in deciding which field piece to use. There was a mix of 6- and 8-pounders, just as there was a mix of 6-inch and 5.5-inch howitzers in the field:

French Ordnance in Germany, January to March 1809
Source: Campagne de 1809 en Allegmagne et en Autriche by Commandant Saski, Volume I
Davout's command-1 January 1809
12-pounders: 14
8-pounders: 54
6-pounders: 8
4-pounders: 28
6-inch howitzers: 22
5.5-inch (24-pounder) howitzers: 4
Total: 130

Armee en Allegmagne-March 1809
12-pounders: 22
8-pounders: 56
6-pounders: 46
4-pounders: 20
6-inch howitzers: 20
5.5-inch (24-pounder) howitzers: 16
Total: 180

Commandant Saski used French archival data for his figures. The data clearly shows that 'most' of the 8-pounders had not been replaced by 1808. It wasn't after the campaign was over that the replacement in the Grande Armee was not complete. The Young Guard artillery still was using 4-pounders as late as 1811, and it should be noted that 4-pounders were still being used in Germany in 1809.

B

Dear Kevin
It is interesting to see the speed of replacement/augmentation with AnXI 6-pdrs and 24-pdr howitzers. The identity of 12-pdrs is more difficult.

In 1811, the Young Guard were instructed to use Gribeauval 4-pdr as Bn guns.

In addition the 1809 campaign lasted from April-July 1809. So it is important to see how many were used at the end.
Stephen

My OOBs for L'Armee D'Allemagne in April 1809 indicate that the above #s as offered by Kevin are correct- I expect one of the reasons that the 6# guns did not yet outnumber the tradional 8# in the foot & horse batteries assigned to the regular divisions/corps is that 36 of the new 6#'s went straight to the guard horse artillery- they then only appear with the army in theater after the inital stage of the Danube campaign had run its course.
R

Thank you Robert

So the Grande Armee were caught part way through a change. Those units that came from France such as the Guard Artillery were equipped with AnXI 6-pdrs?

Stephen

The following totals are for Wagram on 5-6 July. I only counted ordnance in II Corps, III Corps, IV Corps, Guard, and the 11th Corps (Marmont) along with the French cavalry divisions. The foreign troops I did not count, nor the Army of Italy as most of the ordnance was not specified by caliber. I used the order of battle in Scott Bowden's Armies on the Danube for this quick count.

12-pounders: 62
8-pounders: 48
6-pounders: 110
4-pounders: 52
6-inch howitzers: 34
5.5-inch (24-pounder) howitzers: 48
Total: 354

The bottom line here is that the 8-pounders were not phased out and were employed by both foot and horse artillery in 1809. The numbers of 4-pounders is interesting, as are the numbers of 6-inch howitzers.

One of the big increases in 6-pounders and 5.5-inch howitzers came with the arrival of the Imperial Guard, which had 28 6-pounders, 14 5.5-inch (24-pounder) howitzers, and 18 12-pounders.

If there were any AN XI 12-pounders at all I would guess that they would be found in the Guard artillery, as the Foot Artillery Regiment of the Guard was raised and organized in 1808 and might have been issued to them.

The 8-pounders were generally found in II Corps and III Corps. Davout's corps artillery possessed 30 8-pounders and 20 6-inch howitzers.

B

As previously stated, the Guard foot artillery regiment was newly organized. III Corps, plus St. Hilaire's division from the old IV Corps and the heavy cavalry had remained in central Europe after Tilsit.

Massena's IV Corps was newly organized, as was Oudinot's II Corps, soon to be commanded by Lannes.

And then we have the large ordnance capture from the Austrian arsenal in Vienna, and those pieces were also employed. Boulart tells an interesting story along that line.

B

You are right about the 28 6# in the guard horse I think-the 5th & sixth coys had one section each, not 3-I'm not sure why, and I believe those companys wre soon filled out with the addition of the 4 more sections- but at Wagram,8 less 6# guns for a total of 28.
Can one find 'Boulart's story'? in an Ebook anywhere by chance?
R

In Spain the 8pdrs seem to have taken up the reserve artillery role usually taken up by 12 pdrs, with 4 pdrs comprising the bulk of divisional artillery. The 6 pdrs don't seem to have made it there.

Boulart's story is in his memoirs, which I would recommend to anyone. He's an interesting artilleryman.

It can also be found in English in HCB Rogers Napoleon's Army.

B

The Guard horse artillery had been reduced by one squadron (two companies) when the foot artillery regiment was formed in 1808. The regiment was gradually built back up to 6 companies later.

B

Thanks- Guys like you with good info at their fingertips make the results of my poor attempts to figure accurate OOBs less horrendous. Sooner or later, I often finally get it right after all my bumbling around- thanks to your actual scholarship! So, at Wagram, the 5th & 6th Coys were in the process of rebuilding, and arrived with what they had I guess?
R

I would say so, although they were not 'supposed' to be in existence any longer. That might be a case of the regimental commander not paying attention to the official decree, which was common in the Grande Armee.

B

Dear Mathew
Can you explain the existance of the best extent examples of AnXI 6-pdrs and 24-pdr howitzers being in the Lisbon Army Museum. This gives a physical and visual answer to yout statement.

The amount and usage of artillery in the Peninsular is very very poorly documented. It would be wonderful to see that pulled together.

Stephen

Stephen. No I'm afraid I can't.

The main evidence I used in my statement was Rory Muir's description of the artillery in Marmont's army at Salamanca, and The Times report of the artillery captured at Vitoria – no 6 pdrs at all. Vitoria represented the consolidation of most of the French fighting forces in 1813, with a historical lineage going back further than that. If the French armies had any 6pdrs available to them they would surely have brought them to Vitoria.

That leaves a few possibilities. The Spanish might have captured them prior to Vitoria, perhaps before Napoleon started stripping his Peninsular campaign of resources in 1809. Or they could have been used by Suchet's forces (which never managed to unite with the main army at Vitoria), and the Spanish managed to capture them. Or maybe they captured them after Vitoria, when the French may have brought 6pdrs in to replace the virtually 100% losses at Vitoria.

I don't think any of these possibilities invalidate the main thrust of my statement, except its applicability to the earlier incursions by the French, and to Suchet's army.

I'm afraid I have no knowledge of further sources. It is frustrating that there is so little available. For my wargames I have made some suppositions from the Vitoria data (I don't believe they used their 12 pdrs in the battle), but it is informed guesswork.

Matthew

I don't mean to throw a wrench in the works and time draws a veil but I recall reading a memoir of a French Guard Horse artillery officer, between Aspern and Wagram, taking one of the 8lb guns to the Vienna Casting Works to be recast/repaired because it's touch hole had grown too large from frequent firing.

As for the Year XI in the Portuguese museum, an educated guess would be they we captured during the invasion of France or liberated after the peace in 1814. Certainly the Year XIs were much better pieces than the British light or heavy 6lbrs and armies were always looking to upgrade.

Bob Coggins

I don't want to throw a spanner in the works but after the Russian debacle, and due to the losses suffered there, the French brought the old 8lbs out and certainly rearmed the Poles for one with them, and from what I recall, used them as well.

Of course I did not read Stephen's email properly and thought that the museum pieces were Spanish rather than Portuguese.

This makes capture from Suchet's forces a most unlikely explanation. Capture in 1808 or 1810 invasions is possible, but I agree with Bob that 1814 is the most likely possibility.

Bob,

The French Guard artillery officer to whom you are referring was Boulart. He was going to be inspected by Napoleon himself regarding the readiness of his gun company, and Napoleon expected him to have all of his guns available. With one in the 'shop' he procured an Austrian piece from the captured arsenal on loan, so he was technically 'all present.' When Napoleon showed up he asked Boulart if he had all of his guns. Boulart replied 'yes' somewhat tongue in cheek and Napoleon replied 'good' and said he would not inspect him.

Napoleon was aware of the problem with the one gun apparently, and he goosed Boulart to get a replacement because of the inspection. Clever, on both their parts.

B

Dear Matthew,
I was not trying to be cryptic about the guns that were captured from Junot in 1808. The AnXI pieces are on M1803 carriages. They are not the hybrid carriages of the M1808. Other carriages extent in Russian are M1803 carriages. This suggests that the M1803 carriages were scrapped but simply that the M1803 carriages were lost in Russia.

The data has not been presented or pulled together. We are certain in 1812 that the Gribeauval 4-pdr and 8-pdr was not used in the Grande Armee except for the 4-pdrs as Bn guns for the Young Guard.

There are no Gribeauval howitzers on the registry of captured guns in Russia. The 6-pouce howitzers are French copies of Prussian 10-pdr (normally referred to as the Longue Porte). These were only used with the batteries that still operated with Gribeauval 12-pdrs.

The position in the Peninsular is unclear. Not helped by the RA careless identification. That is another sad story.

Stephen

That explains it then. At some point after 1809 and before 1812 Napoleon must have stripped his forces in the Peninsula of their regulation French ordnance.

I have been assuming that the French artillery used as Salamanca and Vitoria were Spanish ordnance based on Gribeauval design. Most of the howitzers captured at Vitoria are described as 6 inch – which I don't think is inconsistent with Spanish ordnance.

I would love to get my eyes on Tirlet's report from Vitoria. It is widely quoted by Oman – but no details come through about weights of the pieces. The original might throw some light on the matter.

Matthew

Brechtel198,

Thanks you saved me rummaging through my library. Were Boulart's guns 8lbrs?

Bob

summerfield,

Were the guns taken a Vimeiro? It's my understanding Junot's army took all its equipment home courtesy of the British according to the Convention of Cintra.

Bob Coggins

Bob,

Apparently, Boulart commanded the only Guard artillery company that was present at Essling. He had four 12-pounders and four 6-pounders.

B

That explains it then. At some point after 1809 and before 1812 Napoleon must have stripped his forces in the Peninsula of their regulation French ordnance.

I'm not sure how you reach this conclusion. I think it is much more likely that the French went into Spain with Gribeuval system guns, and that these were supplemented with captured Spanish pieces as they became available.

I think all the Ans XI 6 lbr guns would have gone to equip the Grand Armee first. Any plans to re-equip the army in Spain with the new ordinance would have died with the massive losses of guns in Russia, so Gribeuval guns would have soldiered on there.

I came to this conclusion by looking at actual data. Below are listings of artillery equipment from the massive Nafziger collection of OBs, now maintained by the US Army Combined Arms Research Library (CARL). First up, the artillery equipment of the army in Spain in Dec. 1809 (file 809LSXA):

Royal Guard:
2-8pdrs
4-4pdrs
I Corps:
1st Division
2-8pdrs
4-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
2nd Division
2-8pdrs
4-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
3rd Division
2-8pdrs
4-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
Reserve:
2-12pdrs
4-8pdrs
2-6" howitzers
Park
2-4pdrs

II Corps:
1st Division
4-8pdrs
3-4pdrs
3-6" howitzers
2nd Division
4-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
3rd Division
4-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
Reserve/Park:
3-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers

III Corps:
1st Division
2-8pdrs
4-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
2nd Division
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
3rd Division
1-8pdrs
1-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
4-4pdr carronades
Cavalry Brigade
4-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
Park
1-8pdrs
3-4pdrs

IV Corps:
1st Division
2-8pdrs
3-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
2nd Division
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-5.5" howitzers
3rd Division
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-5.5" howitzers

V Corps:
1st Division
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
2nd Division
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
3rd Division
4-8pdrs
2-6" howitzers

VI Corps:
1st Division
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
2nd Division
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
3rd Division
4-8pdrs
4-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
Reserve:
3-8pdrs
2-6" howitzers

VII Corps:
1st Division: Souham
2-8pdrs
2-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers
2nd Division: Pino
2-8pdrs

All these 4- and 8-pdrs suggest to me that the French went into Spain with the Gribeuval system. Now, here's the artillery of the Army of Portugal in March 1811 (file 811CSAA):

II Corps
7 – 8pdrs
8 – 4pdrs
4 – 3pdrs
6 – Howitzers

VI Corps
12 – 8pdrs
6 – 4pdrs
6 – Howitzers

VIII Corps
12 – 4pdrs
2 – Howitzers

Cavalry Reserve
4 – 4pdrs
2 – Howitzers

Koch, Gen., Mémoires de Massena rédiges d'après les documents
qu'il a lassiés et sur ceux du Dépot de la Guerre et du Dépot des
Fortifications, Paulin et Lechevalier, Paris, 1848.
Copyright GFN 1990

Again, lots of 4s and 8s, which suggest Gribeuval system, although there is no way to tell if the guns were made in France or Spain.

After this there aren't any separate listings of artillery equipment, but some of the more general OB show artillery equipment. Here's the Army of Portugal's guns at the start of 1813, culled from a larger OB (file 812ASXH):

3/2nd Horse Artillery
(3-8pdrs, 2-4pdrs & 1 6" howitzer)
15/3rd Foot Artillery
(4-4pdrs & 1 6" howitzer)
9/3rd Foot Artillery
(1-8pdr, 2-4pdrs & 1 6" howitzer)
14/1st Foot Artillery
(2-8pdrs, 1-4pdr & 1 6" howitzer)
11/8th Foot Artillery
(2-8pdrs, 1-4pdr1 & 1 6" howitzer)
21/5th Foot Artillery
(no guns)
5/5th Horse Artillery
(4-6pdrs & 2 6" howitzers)
Guns in 3 reserve batteries
3-12pdrs
10-8pdrs
6-4pdrs
2-6" howitzers

Again, mostly 4- and 8-pdrs, which once again implies Gribeuval system. Tantalizingly, the 5th Horse artillery have some sort of 6-pdrs, but it isn't possible to tell if they were French Ans XI guns or captured pieces.

So no, I don't think Napoleon replaced all the artillery equipment in Spain between 1809 and 1812. I think they went into Spain with the Gribeuval system guns and kept them for the duration. Considering Spain had the infrastructure (factories, tools, ammo, etc.) to support the Gribeuval system, I think the French did the easiest thing and kept the old style guns. The army in Spain was a pretty low priority to Napoleon, so I doubt he would have gone to the bother and expense of re-equipping its artillery.

Mark

Sorry about the formatting of the above post – it looked a lot better before I hit "submit!"

Well done. That was my belief, but others have stated that it wasn't. Seems to me the French would have taken their artillery with them, that was on hand, into Spain especially I the second invasion when the Grande Armee showed up.

They certainly didn't go into Spain without their artillery expecting to pick up Gribeauval pieces from the Spanish.

Do you have any information on the siege artillery that went into Spain from 1808 on?

B

By the way, there wasn't much difference between the new 6-pounder and the older 8-pounder. The 6-pounder did not have two sets of trunnion plates, and the gun tube was more modern without the reinforces. As for maneuvering and performance there wasn't much difference at all.

The number of caissons that were supposed to be assigned per piece was the same, the gun crews were the same and the sustained rate of fire was the same. The 6-pounder gun tube was lighter than the 8-pounder, as the 6-pounder had 130 pounds of metal per pound of round whereas the 8-pounder had 150.

The bottom line for the employment and manufacture of the 6-pounder was that Napoleon wanted it and the committee vote on the adoptions of Systeme AN Xi was a split one.

B

Do you have any information on the siege artillery that went into Spain from 1808 on?

There are some listings of seige equipment in the Nafziger stuff. I'll have a look tonight and report back.

Can't fault your logic Mark!

Interesting that the 1813 list suggests that batteries were mixed with 4 & 8pdrs; on the same principle no doubt reserve batteries might have the odd 12 pdr.

I have been trying to make sense of how the batteries at Vitoria were made up – but I hadn't given consideration to that possibility!

Since in 1807 apparently the French made a lot of use of captured Austrian and Hanoverian 6pdrs, some of these may have been taken into Spain and left there. But none show up in the inventory of captured pieces at Vitoria (assuming these are correctly identified), so there would not have been many.

Matthew

Captured ordnance was used from the French Revolutionary Wars and from 1805 onwards.

B

'There are some listings of seige equipment in the Nafziger stuff. I'll have a look tonight and report back.'

Thanks very much. I'll look forward to it. If you wish, you can email me at home with the information-Boulart198@yahoo.com

B

Interesting that the 1813 list suggests that batteries were mixed with 4 & 8pdrs; on the same principle no doubt reserve batteries might have the odd 12 pdr.

If you look, there are plenty of mixed batteries in 1809, when they marched in. Usually (but not always), 2 8pdrs, 4 4pdrs and a pair of howitzers. I wonder if this was due to either:

A) a lack of 8pdrs, leading to the substitution of 4pdrs, or:

B) an attempt to make the artillery more mobile in mountainous Spain.

I doubt it's A, since 1808 would be about the time the Grande Armee was replacing its 8pdrs with the new 6pdrs, so one would expect there to be plenty of spares available.

An argument in Bs favor is Wellington's constant worry about getting enough draft animals, which led him to leave his one battery of 12pdrs behind because they were too horse-intensive and difficult to move.

Does anyone else have more info on this? I'm surprised by the number of 4pdrs that went to Spain in first-line artillery units. And survived, apparently, since most of the guns taken at Salamanca were 4pdrs.

This interesting and confusing