Guthroth | 25 Oct 2013 8:42 a.m. PST |
Hi At the end of a 2-day work trip, I have a free Saturday in Athens in mid-January. Are there any military museums that are worth a look or should I just stick to the obvious sites ? Pete |
Grelber | 25 Oct 2013 11:08 a.m. PST |
Guthroth, When I was there in 2004 (and a lot of stuff was closed as they got ready for the Olympics)I visited the Polemos (War) Museum. This had a lot of interesting artillery outside, s well as aircraft. There is a reconstruction of Balkan Wars Farman pusher biplane. Inside were various uniforms and small arms, as well as a Dervish shield from the Sudan. At the time, they did not allow photography inside the building. There is a Greek historical museum covering the past 250 or so years. It is in the old parliament building, site of the Lazarus Parliament, so called because it was brought back from the dead! They had a regimental standard from the Balkan Wars, and items from the War of Independence. The Benaki Folk Museum is supposed to be a good place for costume, but I didn't see it. There is a Greek art museum, which I should have visited to see if they had prints of a military nature. The Byzantine Museum and the Ancient History museum were closed when I was there. I did not have time to visit the armored cruiser Georgios Averoff in Piraeus harbor, which I would have liked. If you are crossing the country overland, many towns seem to have statues of their local War of Independence hero. Grelber |
Shagnasty | 25 Oct 2013 8:37 p.m. PST |
You are only 26 miles from Marathon. |
Sidney Fiddler | 26 Oct 2013 12:04 p.m. PST |
Ive been to the army museum . Well worth a visit. Very central , 5 mins from Constitution Square. THe National Archaeological Museum, Arguably the best in the world for the Classical world. Stunning building and some pieces on Hoplite warfare but just amazing for it's development of western civilisation. One day maybe it would be nice to see the Elgin ( stolen pantheon ) marbles reunited in their homeland in a more modern and advanced new museum than the B.M. Have a nice little trip. |
Old Peculiar | 27 Oct 2013 4:33 p.m. PST |
Sidney, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but claiming the Elgin marbles were stolen is a particularly small minded and stupid attitude. If it were in fact true, and a principle to be followed, then every museum in the World should close its doors and return to the current modern country every historic relic that originated within its borders. that is simply nonsense. |
Guthroth | 27 Oct 2013 11:32 p.m. PST |
I've seen the condition of the marbles that Elgin didn't 'steal', and when you compare them with the ones in the BM, Elgin did the Greeks a favour
. |
Sidney Fiddler | 28 Oct 2013 12:04 a.m. PST |
I am sorry but your views are considered pompous , colonial and dated. The marbles were never given to Britain by their owners. They were bought from the Ottoman Turks who were brutally occupying the country by Elgin for self gratification. They are considered a savage regime to this day by all Christian countries they controlled in Europe . It is hard for us to understand the angst as we are based a safe distance from what is considered a new Dark Age in this part of Europe. IF we did do the Greeks a favour it is not considered this by the ungrateful owners . However you dress it up we have taken stolen goods . Stupid I may be but morally, ethically I am right . The souvlaki is wonderful at Monoastiraki. |
Guthroth | 28 Oct 2013 1:50 a.m. PST |
If they were 'stolen' from the Greeks, it was the Romans who did it in 146BC. The Byzantines then appropriated them in the 4/5th C AD, followed by the Crusaders in 1204. The Ottomans became the next owners in 1453, and they sold them to Elgin. As someone has already said, your suggestion would open the doors to the mass emptying of museums all over the world, including the Louvre Paris and the Smithsonian in Washington. You may be right in a PC, anti-colonial, revisionist sense, but looking at the state of the frescos in Athens I know I am. |
Sidney Fiddler | 28 Oct 2013 2:14 a.m. PST |
Not revisionist , not PC , the bare truth is they are not ours . "Buying stolen goods on the cheap " never can be right. The NEW museum in Athens is more advanced technically to hold the marbles than ours now and because understandably you are worried about the condition of the marbles, your be able to rest in peace. The Hellenic people regard this as "A rape of their Soul" |
Sidney Fiddler | 28 Oct 2013 2:18 a.m. PST |
"The next owners" is this the Adolf Hitler School of history? |
Old Peculiar | 28 Oct 2013 6:14 a.m. PST |
So what happens to tracks? I have a couple of Airfix tanks from the 70's that are still fine, and more from the 80's. They have survived incarceration in a freezing/boiling hot garage. They have survived evacuation from a box file that had been leaked on and collapsed into a soggy mush. So am I just lucky? |
Old Peculiar | 28 Oct 2013 6:21 a.m. PST |
Not sure what happened to my post, but it was not about Airfix kits! "I am sorry but your views are considered pompous , colonial and dated" Maybe but it is an attitude that preserved many great works of antiquity for the benefit of the whole of mankind, and not left them to be destroyed in explosions of political or religious dogma, as the destruction of the statues of The Buddha in Afghanistan, or the long centuries of natural decay that were seen throughout the descendant nations from the Hellenic World. Far better to be colonial and dated, than bigotted and blinkered, a view you seem to he happy to express. Rather than pompous, I think pragmatic may be the word you are looking for. Your opinion of the Ottoman Empire is also somewhat dated and challenged by modern writers and historical evidence. The Greek war of independendence saw brutality on both sides as tends to happen in wars where religion becomes a rallying cry. The Ottoman rule in the Greek states though was no more brutal than contemporary western societies. As for your last comment, it shows your narrow minded view of history and your lack of perspective. Try starting back with say Alexander, and move slowly forward
.. whose school of History would that be then? |
Olive Rudge | 28 Oct 2013 7:28 a.m. PST |
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Sidney Fiddler | 28 Oct 2013 8:02 a.m. PST |
"The Ottoman Rule was no more brutal than contemporary western societies " The talk of someone who has no understanding of the Balkan nations . In the American Revolution , did we witness such brutality ? Not just Greece but Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro ,have all the same attitude to Ottoman rule, regarded by all as savage oppressors. Even the Muslim Albanians have no love . Yes your right brutality was shown on both sides , but how were these people ever going to be free? Should they all wait to be given the vote? It was not a war of religion but wars of Freedom, Independence . Maybe you have no compassion for people to breath freedom . The Ottomans who committed genocide to the Armenian population. You may justify this but 1 million slaughtered in anybody's eyes with any degree of intelligence would be considered barbaric . So yes you are pompous, colonial , dated and even heartless. On a lighter subject, I am pleased your Airfix tanks are OK. Well done. |
Old Peculiar | 28 Oct 2013 3:35 p.m. PST |
Sidney, it really does not matter what I say, or what evidence I point you to, you will not agree with me. However I suggest you open your mind regarding the period of Ottoman rule, rather than the period of Ottoman decline when atrocities were piled on atrocity by both sides. Your interpretation of history is ridiculous and so warped with nationalist comment as to be unworthy of further comment. That said have a look at the BBC series on the Ottomans and just wonder if everything is really as simplistic as you obviously think. |
Sidney Fiddler | 28 Oct 2013 4:50 p.m. PST |
I am surprised you argument rests on a weak.poor BBC series , considered in the Christian lands they occupied as cock and bull. John R Schindler , from his book "Unholy Terror" The most hated aspect of Ottoman rule was the practise of the devshirme, the blood tax imposed on the Christians. For 3 centuries the Ottomans levied male children.They were force ably taken from their families by the thousands and converted to Islam to become Warrior slaves. My point is that in the minds of Serb, Bulgarian etc. This was an evil regime they were under. Go and ask them and see what they say. They were the subjected and this is the opinion these races have. These are the peoples emotions . To say that with Ottoman decline atrocities were piled on by both sides is totally unbalanced . A total extermination of the Armenian race never can be justified. Are you one of those SS reenactors that pop now and then? |
Guthroth | 29 Oct 2013 7:27 a.m. PST |
Hi Sidney, that's two accusations of posters being Nazi sympathiers in a thread about museum choices. I think you need some serious help. Getting this back on topic it looks like I have a couple of choices. The National Archeology Museum - namuseum.gr/wellcome-en.html or the War Museum - warmuseum.gr/english The fact that my hotel is within a couple of km of either and only 500m from the Parthenon just makes the choices harder ! Thanks for the helpful posts. |
Old Peculiar | 29 Oct 2013 1:26 p.m. PST |
Sidney, I suggested you looked at the TV series simply as it is an easy access to a different view point from your own. As for the "Christian" lands you seem to be such a champion for, well recent history has shown just how easily they slip into atrocity and barbarity. I was trying to treat you with some respect, however as your comments have simply become more and more personally abusive it is clear that you are simply a dick and not worth any more time. |
Sidney Fiddler | 30 Oct 2013 2:50 a.m. PST |
Dear Guthroth, I thank you for your concern. Your momentous pomposity has to be admired , built on a exceptional limitless foundation of arrogance . Dear Peculiar, I have no desire to be respected by someone blessed with vulgar childish ignorance . Chin up Sid |
Sidney Fiddler | 30 Oct 2013 3:01 a.m. PST |
The PARTHENON MARBLES Let us substitute stolen/theft as this offends with the word vandalism. "Loafed in life, nor pardoned in the dust" The Anglo/Scott Lord Byron on Elgar . "The British must have the graciousness to send the marbles back to where they were born, to the great Greek sculptor Phedis, who created them, it is an act of civilisation. " Melina Merkouri No argument can defend the immoral , |
bgbboogie | 30 Oct 2013 7:11 a.m. PST |
As an Englishman, I see we paid for the marbles, so they are just property, would America give the stolen colonies back, would all countries give back what others consider stolen, no of course not. But in a modern world where they can be copied and even two copies one painted to show them in their true glory would benefit the museum in London, so as gesture I say give them back for the same money that was paid, oh sorry Greece is bankrupt, when they can get the money that is. Sorry Fiddler but your living in the past going on and on about colonialism. Get over it, its past history. |
Sidney Fiddler | 31 Oct 2013 12:00 a.m. PST |
Boogie, Wonderful historical analysing , enlightened in the Arthur Daly school of reason. A little wit , More Jim Davidson than Monty Python. A fair point .The British bulldog has spoken. Chin up Sid |
Old Peculiar | 31 Oct 2013 2:44 a.m. PST |
Lol "vulgar childish ignorance" and "Pomposity", a little rich from from someone who calls those who do not agree with his extremely onesided and biased views an apologist and fan of Nazi attrocities and started the name calling. Enjoy your rather pathetic verbal ! |
Sidney Fiddler | 31 Oct 2013 3:03 a.m. PST |
All in the best possible taste. |
ELAS MACEDON | 31 Oct 2013 6:34 a.m. PST |
Gentlemen , They were not there's to sell . They will always be ours , today , we can exhibit them in their homeland and around the world for everyone in original and copy. Regards Stefanos |
bgbboogie | 31 Oct 2013 8:45 a.m. PST |
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Guthroth | 31 Oct 2013 9:08 a.m. PST |
While I have some 21st century sympathies for the position of Greek govt on this, the simple facts are unchallengable - 1. The govt of the day (who had been in power for more than 400 years) sold them legitimately. (The current US govt has been in possession of the island of Manhatten for less than 300 years, would you see that returned to the surviving Native Americans ?) 2. Had they remained where they were they would by now have more-or-less ceased to exist. (Which is better, part of the marbles in fantastic condition in London, or all of them destroyed by pollution in Athens ?) 3. Accepting the principle proposed that they should be returned would see all museums emptied overnight. (It is undeniable that the development of Western European culture in the 19th & 20th century was massively influenced by the artifacts of the Egyptian-Greek-Roman civilisations on display in the museums of London, Paris, Madrid, and Berlin.) I don't like to be unkind, but history is written in pages, and once a page is turned and a new page started, going back and re-writing a page causes more problems than are ever solved. The do-gooders of this world have to learn to accept that what happened more than 100 years ago happened and the only way to move forward is from here not there. Finally, I confess I have Sidney stifled. Anyone who accuse me of Nazi sympathies has nothing to say that I want to hear or read. Pete |
Smiling Hetairoi | 03 Nov 2013 3:25 p.m. PST |
You stand a better chance teaching a chimp to speak then reasoning with a Greek. They're the most xenophobic and nationalist people I've met. |
Etranger | 03 Nov 2013 6:36 p.m. PST |
A cetain irony in your choice of screen name then
. Ahh, TMP, where even the simplest request for information can become submerged in a hate fest of prejudice, intolerence and bilge
. |
Smiling Hetairoi | 03 Nov 2013 10:49 p.m. PST |
More like the entire internet. |
ELAS MACEDON | 04 Nov 2013 1:06 p.m. PST |
Hetairoi, Unlike the effete , cowardly Swedes. An irrelevant, backwater of world history and music like ABBA . Stefanos |
Jemima Fawr | 06 Nov 2013 1:45 p.m. PST |
Sidney, Oddly enough, I'm only seeing two insufferably pompous people on this thread
And they aren't the ones you accuse of pomposity
Will you be giving back the treasures stolen by Alexander any time soon? What's that? You can't find them?! How disgracefully outrageous that the Greeks have failed to preserve them, so that they might be displayed in their homelands!!! I'm so outraged that I might even have to write a letter to the Editor of the Times!!!! FFS
|
Jemima Fawr | 06 Nov 2013 3:29 p.m. PST |
And while you're busy chasing Berlin for war reparations, while you be offering to pay us back for the thousands of young men we lost defending your country? For the dozens of ships given to your Navy? For the hundreds of aircraft given to your air force? For the tons of equipment given to your army? No? Then get stuffed. We've already paid. |
Sidney Fiddler | 06 Nov 2013 4:41 p.m. PST |
My country ? I have none if this is what a ludicrous simple minded half wit Briton spits out as reason. While I am sure Greece must be very grateful for the brave sacrifice of the British forces and owes a great debt. Greece got invaded by Italy through Albania and stood with Britain fighting the Axis . Remember Greece is a very small country about the size of a tinpot place like Wales. Don't tell me about sacrifice, The Greeks lost 400,000 from famine under German/italian occupation. Another 100000, died in the resistance . This from a population so small. You must be completely insane. |
Jemima Fawr | 06 Nov 2013 4:46 p.m. PST |
And you accuse others of pomposity
Is there a Greek word for irony? Give the Egyptians and Persians back their treasures or the cash value thereof, you nasty little imperialist, you. Anyway, Tinpot? Yes, and proud to be so, as shown here by the 1/4th Welch:
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Etranger | 06 Nov 2013 6:36 p.m. PST |
Mark – Sidney is one of those Britons ashamed of his country's past
. |
Sidney Fiddler | 06 Nov 2013 11:48 p.m. PST |
Mark, Irony is a Greek word from eironeia, you must be confusing it with nonsense . I can see a career in comedy (another Greek word) on the horizon . On music (blimey another Greek word) I thank you for the Manics , I am sure they would not be sitting on your fence . A charming Brit word to sum up such absurdity , a load of bullocks . Chin up Sid |
Jemima Fawr | 07 Nov 2013 12:17 a.m. PST |
Etranger, Thanks for clearing that up. I though he was just a wind-stuffed, pompous thundertwunt. |
Etranger | 07 Nov 2013 1:24 p.m. PST |
Thundertwunt. What a marvellous word! |
ELAS MACEDON | 07 Nov 2013 2:07 p.m. PST |
Ilithios Twins , I have an even better word for you, Malakas. Stefanos |
Smiling Hetairoi | 07 Nov 2013 3:51 p.m. PST |
I believe this discussion has come to an end. Let's all have some tea, what do you say gents? |
Jemima Fawr | 08 Nov 2013 8:59 a.m. PST |
Stefanos, Are you indeed? Well everyone needs a hobby, but don't overdo it. Thanks for sharing, but please don't send pictures. |
bgbboogie | 09 Nov 2013 2:57 a.m. PST |
I like THUNDERTWUNT can I use it please, please, please???? |