"A U.S. Apache attack helicopter appears in China. .." Topic

…Did they clone it?

"Images have surfaced on the Chinese Internet of what seems to be an actual AH-64D Apache or a real-size copy of the world's most famous attack chopper.

The helicopter, on a truck, seems to be in the process of being moved even if it is at least strange that it is is not hidden below a protective covering, as happened for other mysterious choppers spotted on the move in China.

It's not easy to guess how Beijing put their hands on the helicopter. It could be one of the U.S. Army Apaches downed or crash landed in Iraq, that was later fixed and exported in China…"

Full article here
link

What do you think?

Amicalement
Armand

Or, one that our "dependable allies" sold to them for a good profit.

Could be a movie prop …

Yeah, I am going for a prop. The US tries pretty hard to make sure any matériel like this is destroyed, so I really doubt it is a downed bird that was recovered.

Almost certainly a movie prop, and the photos are over a year old – definitely not news. Eg. the same photos are in this thread from last March:

link

Don't want to interfere with anyone's conspiracy theories though….

I think it probably doesn't matter, since anything on the Apache being secret by this time is incredibly unlikely. They started making those things when I was a kid.
-Kle.

Interesting … I thought very few AH-64s were shot down and after the war, I'd think the few that were would have been recovered by the US. Of course at this point it is older tech … I know the Chinese who have a small border with Afghanistan, were paying for any bits that the local could collect from US missiles and bomb strikes, etc. …

Was it made by the same people who made those fake North Korean missles we saw on parade a few months ago?

Those North Korean missiles aren't fake! They are already orbiting the earth on their space shuttle, ready to reign down nuclear fire on the imperialists!

link

Hmmm … good to know …

I'd go with, a) prop b) expensive toy c) photoshop work in that order…

Why do they think it's a D? I don't see the radar mast. Could be an A.

Since the following countries field the Apache it could be one sold under the table (or loaned) by:

Egypt (they don't exactly love us at the moment), Greece, Indonesia, Israel (Israel has in the past co-built systems with China, and they aren't to happy with the US), Japan (not even remotely likely), Kuwait (doubtful), Netherlands, Saudi Arabia (not likely), Singapore (doubtful), Taiwan (not gonna happen), United Arab Emirates (doubtful), the UK (really doubtful).

If it is real, I'd put my money on Egypt or Israel.

Not all AH-64Ds have the radar mast.

Dunno why the Chinese would want to copy the AH-64.

They already have indigenous programs in place:

CAIC WZ-10

Harbin WZ-19 (light reconaissance/attack helo):

My guess would he they plan to use it the same way we use the mi 24s we aquird my shady means. They make a pretty realistic opfor.

My immediate thoughts were Pakistan and Egypt.

Not sure if the former has any AH-64s to trade, but some unofficial comments I ran across mention 6 – 20 possibly being available in country:

link

For the latter, higher number, it mentioned they weren't Pakistani property per se, so it's unclear to me who they might belong to, if true.

I can easily see Egypt trading for something.

The Saudis might give the Pakistanis one, or more, as well, in trade for their nuke warheads/missiles the Paks are supposedly holding for them, just in case.

Pakistani AH-64s have never been confirmed as far as I am aware.

They do use AH-1 Cobras, a number of which were delivered in 2000s as an addition to older models delivered in 1980s.

Egypt has taken delivery of 36 and was upgrading them to D standard.

ITS A MOVIE PROP… Saw the same photo some months back with the tagline that it was for some action/adventure flick. But lets not have the facts deter the 'tin foil hat' brigade…

Quite right – don't want anyone spoiling bash-the-treacherous-foreigners week with actual facts….

Well, to be fair, the ones I listed are treacherous, and have supported various attacks on Christians, and/or US and European interests, in addition to others.

There are plenty of examples, ad nauseum, to support my position on that, but I do admit the source of the helo was pure conjecture.

It's not like some of them haven't done that before, e.g. Pakistan did provide parts of the stealth Blackhawk to China, after our successful Bin Laden raid.

"But lets not have the facts deter the 'tin foil hat' brigade…"

'don't want anyone spoiling bash-the-treacherous-foreigners week with actual facts….'

Oh for Pete's sake, nobody did anything of the sort. In my post I said 'if it's real.' That's called a caveat. It's used when you are speculating and not sure if what is being discussed is factual or not.

No one said anyone was treacherous.

Fact- countries do try to get hold of each others' kit in order to evaluate it.

Fact- that's not treacherous. It's good strategy. The US has done it, the UK has done it, Russia has done it, Israel has done it. It happens, and it happens because each nation is trying to provide it's own military with the best possible knowledge.

When I was in the Navy, evaluating such kit was part of my job, so I'm not just spouting off based on no knowledge of such matters.

No one here is wearing a tin foil hat or snickering at 'treacherous foreigners.'

But don't let a reasonable speculative discussion get in the way of a good snark and a chance to cast aspersions on fellow TMP members.

…nobody did anything of the sort.

I guess you read the first reply to your post differently to me then….

The first reply to my post was:

"Not all AH-64Ds have the radar mast."

So I'm guessing I did read it differently than you did.

Sorry my bad – I meant the first reply to the original post – for some reason I was thinking you started the thread. Anyway, probably time I logged out of TMP for a bit, before I trigger an international incident…. ;-)

Fact- that's not treacherous. It's good strategy

I think the reference is more to some of the countries the US sells/provides weapons too.

Unfortunately the Middle East is one of the biggest markets for weapons, especially since Cold War finished.

However both the Arabs and Israelis* have proved "treacherous" i.e. not necessarily dealing in the interest of the US despite being under US security umbrella.

*Israelis helped China develop J-10 fighter as well as provided advanced AWACS – USA applied pressure to stop the latter deal.

Speaking of arming Arabs – here's another couple of big sales to UAE and Saudi Arabia including cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles and laser guided munitions

link

It's very strange that the Arabs are investing so heavily into defence given that their two main potential adversaries (Iraq and Iran) are neutered – Iraq's military is effectively a COIN force and Iran's is starved of funds and capital and relies mainly on 1970s equipment delivered before the fall of the Shah.

" Iran's is starved of funds and capital and relies mainly on 1970s equipment delivered before the fall of the Shah."

You may have noticed recently, after years of debilitating sanctions, that the cumulative effect has worked, and Iran's economy has hit rock bottom. Currency collapse.

Not coincidentally, that's also the reason Iran has "elected" a "reasonable" head of government who has made efforts to reach out to the West and indicate he's ready to talk.

Now, whether or not the Iranians (known among their neighbors for their cunning wiles and negotiating guile) would actually be willing to stop their nuke program and comply with their IAEA commitments, it is clear for the past two months that they actually *have* to make some kind of deal, because they can't keep going as things are, and now they have acknowledged it.

So, bottom line being, no matter what kind of political deal is made, Iran wants the sanctions off and is finally ready to bargain to that end. So it may not be too long before they're ready to start investing real money in their military again. So the Arab concern with defense, particularly from the pov of facing Iran, is imho quite reasonable. Not to mention the entire neighborhood (Tunisia to Syria) has fallen apart the past two years.

It's just a smokescreen.

The guy in charge in Iran has said in the past that they would never halt their development. They're just playing for time, 'til they can make a few warheads.

So it may not be too long before they're ready to start investing real money in their military again

Even before current events they've not really shown a serious interest in recapitalising their military.

And both the Russians and Chinese have generally been willing to sell.

I'm not sure what status the Iranian military has in the regime – it could be it's kept weak due to uncertainties about it's political allegiance.

TH, a distinction must be made between the Artesh (Army – think Wehrmacht) and Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (think SS). The question to what degree the regime relies on one or the other of these is less important than the fact that they know they depend on force to stay in power, and they go to great lengths to safeguard and stoke that force (the nuke program being the primary among many examples).

Mako11, of course it's just a smokescreen. But the fact that they have been forced to such desperate measures reveals the effect of sanctions (much to my surprise, I didn't think they were working). The regime is playing the "reasonable" card as a last-ditch attempt to get sanctions lifted.

We do have to remember that the ME, SWA armies when not planning the demise Israel, they have a record of figthing among themselves plus internal problems as well … Oh … and I never wear a tin foil hat … it gives me a rash …

The late unpleasantness in Egypt would certainly have provided good cover for an effort to ship an airframe out. Think- it could transit unimpeded. The Egyptians control the Suez.

But, for the record, it does not appear to be real. There are some inconsistencies with the cockpit and nose/sensor package that can't be explained away.

Actually, the sanctions are pretty weak, compared to what they should be.

We should have blockaded their oil and gas shipments a long time ago.

As it is now, they still sell most of their oil to Asian nations, like China, and others, that have waivers from the sanctions.

Seems to me this could have been dealt with much better, a long time ago, if they'd really tightened the screws on them. As it is now, it's only a matter of time until someone has to attack to keep them from getting nukes.

Yes, the current sanctions have put pressure on their economy, but clearly not enough to really make a difference, as demonstrated by their huge increase in the number of centrifuges they have running, and in their continuing progress towards producing a number of warheads.