"Stradiots in the Hungarian Armies??" Topic

Being Balkan cavalry would you have found Stradiots in the armies of Hungary in their wars against the Ottomans in the early 16th century?
I am thinking about expanding my Renaissance armies to include the Ottomans and I want to be able to field some of my troops from Italy for them.
I am assuming Landsknecht were there as well?

FM

Landsknechts where everywhere, from Russia to England.
Stradiots, as light cavalry for hire, would be similar.

Not sure, however, wether the Hungarians would hire Stradiots or wether their function would be filled with native troops like Hussars (they developed in Hungary, starting with Serbians fleeing the Ottoman domination there).

Landsknechts are a definite yes, as are other mercenary infantry who might look similarly equipped. After the demise of the Black army Hungary was reluctant to field a standing force of infantry, and the peasant rising of 1514 destroyed the chance of an effective native militia – so I assume they would rely on mercenaries in times of need.

Hungarians in 1514 (executing the leader of the peasant rising):

In 1526 the mainstay of the native army would be cavalry, from Gensdarmes to lighter armed knights up to units of Hussars.

There are some good images of the campaign of 1526, many from the Ottoman sources. Sadly the coverage from western sources is not as intensive as for other major events of the era, like Pavia, the Sacco di Roma or the Siege of Vienna, and sources on the equipment of the Hungarians after the Black Army

BTW: Have you heard that Wargames Factory will release the Arsenal Spanish?

"Not sure, however, wether the Hungarians would hire Stradiots or wether their function would be filled with native troops like Hussars (they developed in Hungary, starting with Serbians fleeing the Ottoman domination there)." Or would Stradiots fit into the husar category?

So when are WF releasing Arsenal Spanish?

So that would be Warlord Games not Wargames Factory taking over Arsenal Miniatures.

I'm with Puster on hussars. By 1514 they were an integral part of armies as far north as Poland (battle of Orsza and all that), and they came there from Hungary, so I believe there would be an abundance of them.
Check the

low middle section to seem them in Polish employ (just below the group of fully armoured knights, wearing hats and armed with lances and bows); there was still a long way for them to become Winged Hussars. I believe they looked exactly the same in Hungary.

You could use hat-wearing stardiots with some conversion work, or you could use Old Glory's link ERA-37 set (other hussars from this range are really XVII cent.)

I think the beaver hat light cavalry in the center are indeed Stradiots, though there are others on the image, too. [EDIT] Nope, all classified as Polish and Lithuanian Hussars or light cavalry by contemporary sources.

Afaik the Hussars of Hungary developed different in style from those in Poland, though in the early 16th century this might not have been obvious. There are indications that the Hussars developed as light cavalry within the Black Army and were one of the few units that were kept after the army was (forcefully) disbanded.

Regulations in the Black Army for a hussar were:
- Zischägge (helmets in Turkish style
- Breast- und Armarmour,
- Tartsche (small ironclad shield)
- Sarrass (heavy sabre)
- Warmace
- Lance
- Hegyestőr (Estoc, pike-sword, carried at the saddle)

As this unit continued its existence, I assume that the equipment did not change too much.

There are also reports on bow armed "Hussars" – perhaps they came in different blends and the regulations are only for some, or the bow was dropped.

I would probably use TAG Sipahis with modifications (perhaps from Stradiots or Croats) as early Hungarian hussars (especially not the armoured horse – TAG will put other horses in there if you ask them).

BTW: Of course its WG, not WF that does the Arsenal minis.

BTW2: Small quiz
Does somebody else notices the character that is depicted twice on the painting for the Orsha-battle?

Puster
If you look at those regualtions for Black Army hussars, you could actually see the Winged Hussar – just replace the shield with a pair of pistols and there you go :) So I do believe that they developed similary. Afterall, Hussars (and consequently Winged Hussars) were considered light cavalry throughout XVI century, and only became "heavies" once other cavalry adopted lighter style (XVII cent.).
Also, keep in mind that throughout XVI century polish and hungarian military was closely tied, even moreso after Báthory István became the king of Poland in 1576. As a matter of fact, Poland adopted sabre through hungarian influence, not russian.

Good points. I assume the different development could be caused by Hungary becoming divided after 1526 with the parts becoming dependances of the Ottoman and Habsburg empires as opposed to the Polish Lithuanian Commonewealth where this type of equipment was service for the nobility.

That still leaves us with the question of the appearance of the Hungarian Hussars during the Mohacs campaign. Looking carefully at the ottoman images of Hungarian troops I can see some with the specific winged shield, but none depicted without helmets. Seems insufficient, however, for a definite conclusion.

I still believe they'd be heavily influenced by turkish style, with çiçak (chichack, Zischägge, in polish – szyszak) helmets and "winged" (with or without feathers) shields. Armed with lance, sabre and bow. Predatory animal's skin on saddle and horse wouldn't be out of place.
This is all, however, my kinda-educated guess, and I can produce no contemporary pictures (other than that of Orsza, where both shields and animal skin can be seen in the foreground) to prove my vision.

An Ottoman Delli by Melchior Lorck has wings attached to his helmet, his shield and his lance.
A Delli or Akinji in 'Single Combat at the battle of Mohacs', 1526
Delis in 'I Turchi. Codex Vindobonensis 8626'

From 'I Turchi. Codex Vindobonensis 8626'

Other types by Melchior Lorck also have wings attached to shields.

btw Dellis have similar origins to Stradiots.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

For what it's worth this is how Dürer portrayed Hungarian equipment in Maximilians triumphzug.

Nice, looks like hats and bows for at least some hungarians. As this equipment does not comply with the regulations, I assume there were different types of "hussars", giving the Black Army and perhaps later Hungary three kinds of cavalry.

It remains open wether this equipment is one that Dürer saw in 1518, or some from Maximilians 1490 campaign vs. Hungary.

Perhaps there will be a plate on the Ehrenpforte on this campaign. Alas, today I lack the time :-/

Puster,
How well sourced are the regulations? I find them a wee bit suspicious as they are remarkably similar to late 16th C regulations for Hussars in Habsburg service as well as the equipment worn by the heavy Transylvanian cavalry in the same period. Furthermore they list far heavier equipment than can be seen in the period artwork or is described in written descriptions of the early hussars which focus on them being light cavalry.

Equipment such as Zischägge are also odd given that there is little or no recorded Ottoman influence on the Hungarian equipment at that time, it ony appears after Mohacs.

…the King brought 900 Hungarian horses, that in my judgment they are the best horses(horsemen) in the world, and in such manner they proved themselves in the Saxon war of '46 and now in this one of '47 (Schmalkaldic War). The weapons they carry are the following ones: long lances, hollow and thick, and they give big blow (give a large meeting) with them. They carry shields or bucklers made in this manner, that are wide at the bottom, and in that manner they are until the middle, from the middle up on the external part they become narrower until they end in a point, that passes above the head; the shields are rounded inside like the pavises; some carry coats of mail. These shields they paint and put/attach symbols on them in their own manner, and they seem really good. Many of them carry sabres and estoques/tucks (koncerze) together, and some war hammers with a long handle, and that they made great use of those (warhammers)

Luis de Ávila y Zúñiga describing Hussars during the Schmalkaldic war.
link

link

Scabbard from about 1500 engraved with images of hussars

Jörg Breu the Elder made this engraving called 10 Hungarian Hussars

It has been suggested that Breu's print is of Stradiots.

There is also Hungarian Hussar by Jost Amman

Druzhina
Illustrations of Hungarian Costume & Soldiers

Jost Amman's image is from a much later period, the last quarter of the 16th C. While that blog post makes some interesting points is also contains several logical fallacies such as strawman arguments and the writer cherry-picking the evidence.

For example he uses images from the late 16th C (1575-1599) period to "prove" that the Breu Hungarian's must be falsely labled. Likewise his use of the battle of Orsha painting is interesting as he selects only a small part from it which supports his interpretation such as one of the clean shaven hussars. Yet he leaves out that the great majority of hussars on the Orsha painting does have the very beards he is trying to disprove.

Likewise his arguing that some of the weapons described by Zuniga are not seen in Breu's print ignores the rather important fact that for example the straight sword would be strapped to the left side of the horse which is not visible in Breu's print.

He does make some good points, indeed looking at the images the Breu print is markedly diffrent from the other images which are supposed to show Hungarian hussars. But IMO he has weakend his argument rather than strenghtend it due to the methods he has used.