"Army Painter Dip - 'new and improved'" Topic

I've been using this for a while with good results, though mixed results when varnishing over it(but that's a different beef).

My problem is I bought a tin of 'new and improved' dip and it's dreadful: it wont mix up properly, leaving lumps of sediment at the bottom no matter how hard I try to shake and stir and – more importantly – it lacks any subtlety in the final result.

Has anyone else experienced this? Have they really changed the formular or is 'new and improved' the usual marketing scam?

At the best part of £20.00 GBP a tin I'm reluctant to asume I've just got one duff tin and simply replace it but I can't use this tin agian, its awful.

John T

Have you tried Minwax Polyshades stain varnish? It is the original Dip formula. It is considerably less expensive. That's what I use. I have not had any issues with it since I started, back around 1997? I believe there are different, though similar, products to the Minwax line, available in the UK, but I don't recall the brand name. Best of luck. Cheers!

Have you sent them an email? Could be a bad batch…

I would definitely send them an email.

The Army Painter stuff is vastly superior to the MinWax, I bought some and tested both, and found the AP sticks better, and looks better. Is it worth for the admittedly higher price? I think so. I've done all my French Naps with the AP.

Haven't had any problems with clumping as OP does.

I've used Army Painter dips for a lot of stuff and for a long time, including the new and improved stuff and have always had results I am very happy with. I have never experienced the clumping you describe in a new tin, however I have experienced it in older tins, especially ones that have been opened for a few months and the lid does not fit back on properly. In these cases I have added Mineral Turpentine, a spoonful at a time until I get the consistency back to where I want it.

In these cases though, the lifetime of the stuff is at an end and after a single use more I throw it out and buy a new tin.

It sounds to me like you have got a dodgy tin. Try mix in some Turps and see if you can get it to a consistency where you will at least be able to get a single use out of it before tossing it out. If you have to put in more than 3-4 spoons of Turps though, I'd be inclined to just toss it out and buy another tin.

Also, out of interest, by the below do you mean a light cracked surface in some spots on the model after spraying mat varnish?

"…though mixed results when varnishing over it(but that's a different beef)."

twoguns – I've had that problem too. I've used Tamiya Flat Clear and Testors and they have both had that effect at different times. I though it might be humidity, but I've tried different conditions and it has been fine.

Thanks all.

@ Sgt Slag: I've always been put off the minwax approach as I've heard it takes an age to dry (and I'm a pretty impatient kinda guy). Up until now I've always been very happy with the Army Painter product and am prepared to pay extra if it works….

I think you might all be right re a bad tin.

@twoguns: yes the craze after varnishing bas been my issue. I have stopped using the dip on 15mm vehicles until I can sort out a varnish regime that I can guaranty a better result. But I don't have any issues with using it on figures and really need to carry on using it.

John T

After I had to throw a tin away after not even half of it used, I divide the contents of one tin over three or so small plastic bottles with secure lids. Use one bottle until empty and then take the next. Works perfectly. And certainly turpentine (not too much) helps prolong its use.

I have used turps to recover a tin that had gone too thick previously (through my own sloppiness in replacing the lid badly, I might add) but this is something definitely different. It's like the pigment mix is wrong…

John T

John have you tried Black Hats version from cote d'arms ?

Its smaller, cheaper and does just as nice a job in my opinion. So you don't have to worry to as much about it going off before you use it all.

Its also acrylic so a little nicer to play with

Keith

No I haven't. I use te Army Painter inks quite alot (I see they have some new ones out that I might venture into if I get the chance but the 'brown' palate they have at the moment does me fine). I think the are excellent if you want to brush stuff on but I was really taken with th whole 'dip' approach so I like the big tin and a wide nich to acheive just that.

But – as I'm going to Colours – I might try and pick some of the Black Hat stuff while I'm there and give it a whirl.

Ta

John

@ Natholeon and John – I used to occassionally have the lightly cracked surface when spraying Mat varnish (I use Testors Dullcote) over Army Painter Dip. I couldn't work out why because it seemed to happen randomly.

Anyway, I eventually got an idea in my head that it might have been that I was spraying the Mat varnish on too thickly. So I started doing a very light misting only, and after it had dried, if I felt it needed more I would give it a second misting.

Since I started doing this, I have not had a single cracked surface from spraying the Mat varnish over the dip.

When I say a light misting, I mean one or two quick passes of the Mat varnish after letting the dip dry for a full two days.

wogunsblazing

I think that's where I too am going wrong. Too much varnish too quick and Testors (which I also use) is notoriously agressive.

John T

John Treadaway,

I, too, am impatient. I started baking my Dip'ed figures, 170 F, for 20 minutes, back in the late 90's. Recently, I purchased a Crock Pot/Slow Cooker: the "Low" setting is 160 F, and if it has the "Keep Warm" setting, that is even lower. I line it with aluminum foil, and a piece of Parchment Paper (non-stick baking paper), and I let them 'bake' for two hours, to be certain the Dip has cured all the way through (four hours has been recommended for complete curing, but I find that two suffices for normal handling, and matte clear coating).

I've baked: soft & hard plastics (they get soft, and pliable, but they do not melt -- 270+ F melting point), resin, Model Metal (Prince August, does not sag, or soften), lead and tin figures (neither sags, nor softens), without issue. The only thing I've had issues with, is that Hot Glue will melt inside, so I have to be careful if I've used that on anything I put into the Crock Pot…

The Crock Pot cost me $20 USD, at Wal-Mart, here in the USA. It is sooo convenient, to be able to cure the figures in a matter of hours. It allows me to finish them in the same day. The same technique will work for AP products, if they take too long to dry… Cheers!

Thanks for the tip sarge!

John T

Forgot to mention: the Minwax product does give off solvent fumes, and I assume the AP does as well, so I put the Crock Pot in my garage, with clearance surrounding it, as the outside does get quite hot. The garage allows the fumes to dissipate, without harming anything, or stinking up my house (when I used my self-cleaning oven, the fumes were unpleasantly strong in the house, even with open windows, and a stove hood with an exhaust fan running…). Cheers!

I have minwax and love it. It is water based, and dose not stink. I use it for both 15mm, and 28mm with out any issues. For a finish I use testor's dull coat.
I have never had cracking, slow drying. The only issues I have had is pooling, and this is something I can fix by watching the run off and removing it.

You have to use what works for you. I can not afford AP's dip as it is about $40. USD USD, and the minwax was $10. USD and I got it to do some really work around the house. So it was free, once the door I replaced was finished.

As for settling I would bring it back, or take it to a DYI and have them put it on a shaker, to get it mixed back up. Just do not use it for a while after it has been shook up. Let it settle and the air comes out.

Noel

I asked Army Painter about decanting tins for reasons as above. They saw no problem with this but recommended using glass and not plastic. i have started using small jam jars so as not to have to keep opening the tin. They also suggested cleaning the lid of tins with mineral turpentine.

To clarify a bit I suspect that Sgt Slag is using MinWax "Wood Finish" and Noelvh is using MinWax "Wood Stain."

The former is an oil based stain. The "Wood Stain" line is water based.

I've used the former but not the latter. These days I use the "Windsor & Newton Ink" + "Future Floor Wax*" combo. Followed by Testors or Krylon dull coats. Been working great.

*Now relabeled "Pledge FloorCare" I think but don't hold me to it I haven't tried it yet. Takes up the same spot as the old Floor Wax in the local Walmart.

Minwax makes both a solvent-based polyurethane stain, as well as a water-based version. I do use the solvent-based product. I have never tried the water-based urethane-stain product (it might be similar to Pledge/Future? Don't know…).

Pledge Floor Polish with Future Shine, is correct, and the same product as the old Future Floor Polish, they just got bought up by the SC Johnson Co., who renamed the product -- they might have dropped the "with Future Shine" bit, by now. Don't know. Cheers!

Interesting responses. I also use the Future/Ink method and I do like the result (and it doesn't craze under Testors so a big plus!)

What I do find, however, is the shading subtlety available from the AP dip isn't there: it's great for outlining, say, panel detail on an AFV, but less useful for figures – still good (and, interestingly, similar to the results I'm getting from the latest AP dip but with far less hassle and no lumps!)

But not with the gradations of colour I've seen with the oil based dip.

Example of sucessful AP dipped vehicles (without the crazies)

Example of Future and Ink dipped vehicles (with the od bit of extra washes using AP inks)

Examples of sucessful AP dipped figures

When I've photographed the latest ones I'm working on, I'llshow you the results.

I've tried neither of the Minwax products – water or oil based – but will certainly look out for them. I've seen some on UK Amazon but it seems about the same price as Army Painter Dip (ie the best part of £20.00 GBP) so there is no price advantage.

Like I said, I am/was happy with the dip. I just wish my tin would work!

John T

It does sound like a duff batch. My tin(s) have similar labeling and work fine.

Great looking stuff JT !

Thanks folks!

John T

Admiral,
The "Wood Finish" and "Wood Stain" lines from Minwax that you mention are both distinct from their "Polyshades" product line.

"Polyshades" Is a stain plus polyurethane that is available in both oil based and water based formulas. It's the combination of Stain and Poly that makes it most similar to Army painter which is also a Stain plus Polyurethane product.

I'm not a chemist, but I think it's the POlyurethane that helps the stain to settle into a "shade" over surfaces the way it does.

I've used the Oil based Polyshades products for some years with good results. The nearest AP to Minwax equivalents are
Pecan for Soft Tone
Antique Walnut for Strong Tone
Tudor for Dark Tone.

I've also done a Minwax brush-dipping tutorial here:
link

Admiral,
The "Wood Finish" and "Wood Stain" lines from Minwax that you mention are both distinct from their "Polyshades" product line.

"Polyshades" Is a stain plus polyurethane that is available in both oil based and water based formulas. It's the combination of Stain and Poly that makes it most similar to Army painter which is also a Stain plus Polyurethane product.

I'm not a chemist, but I think it's the POlyurethane that helps the stain to settle into a "shade" over surfaces the way it does.

I've used the Oil based line for some years with good results. The nearest AP to Minwax equivalents are
Pecan for Soft Tone
Antique Walnut for Strong Tone
Tudor for Dark Tone.

I've also done a Minwax brush-dipping tutorial here:
link

Thanks Ordinary bass – I'll take a look.

Meanwhile, I mentioned that I'd post pics of the results of the tin of dip: they are the Eureka miniatures Ventauran infantry on this thread TMP link

John T

EDIT – Great tutorial OBass. I had another look on the web. The cheapest I can get Minwax anything is either £22.00 GBP or so on Amazon UK or around £7.00 GBP on ebay.. with £15.00 GBP postage from the US. So: the same price. Army Painter is 25 Euros – so about £20.00 GBP

Guess I'll have to buy a replacement tin of APD and see what happens!

John Treadaway, have you looked for the UK equivalent in your hardware stores? I know I have seen postings about UK products that are the same, but I don't remember the name of the product… Try doing a UK-specific Internet search, or visit your local DIY/hardware stores, and ask for a urethane-stain product. There has to be something similar, locally produced, at a more reasonable price.

Buying AP just seems to be like buying GW flocking, glue, etc. The generic products are good, and much less money, for the same results. Best of luck, no matter what -- just trying to re-allocate your funds for more toys to put into the painting queue… Cheers!

I have had the craze effect from varnishing with Army Painter. I understood it to be caused by spraying too much varnish at once. I had really sprayed on a thick coat, which seemed to loosen the paint and float it up to the surface of the wet varnish.

Later, when I sprayed multiple, thin coats, letting each dry before spraying the next, I had much better results, with no crazing at all.

Thanks Sarge – has anyone in the UK tried a UK based poly stain with any good results?

Cyclopeus – I think you'reright: it's impatience on my part with the Testors. After te AP dip, I even tried redipping the models before spray varnishing in Future/Klear to seal the surface to act as a barrier between the Testors and the dip but even that was intermittant.

I think I need to go slow and easy on the varnish. Or use an acrylic dip (like Future/Klear with ink in it) and nothing else.

John T

Hi

There used to be an oil based varnish/stain from 'Ronseal' – an 'antique pine' shade was a nice dark brown, I don't think it is made anymore – oil based varnishes seem to be rare and are now replaced by acrylic.

I think another company called 'Sandolin' produce an oil based varnish/stain which might be worth looking at.

Wilkinsons produce several woodstains. Their water soluble teak version is close to strong tone, although if you add a little water you improve the coverage and make the stain closer to AP.

I no longer use anything expensive.

Why not just experiment with making your own dip? About twenty odd years ago I used to paint for a company that had commissions for a group in the states and we used to make a simple dip by mixing a little oil paint straight into Humbrol matt varnish, it worked pretty well. We mostly used Vandyke Brown as I recall. You can make a similar 'dip' using water based varnish and ink.