"HELICOPTER DOWNINGS" Topic

Doing some research and wondered if you knew of a helicopter ever being brought down by rifle or pistol fire? In Vietnam? In Soviet Afghanistan? Anywhere? Is there a book or article you'd recommend?

I heard an anecdote of an OH-6 being brought down by a VC with a captured BAR. I'd be hard pressed to find it again, though.

I've seen a photo on the 'net of farmers jubilantly waving their rifles in front of a downed Apache - I think it was within the last couple of years in Iraq, failing that, it would've been Afghanistan. One particular fellow claimed that he was 'the one' who had shot it down, I guess he got his fifteen minutes of fame that way. But there is probably no way to tell what the real cause of the downing was...

There is a *lot* of anecdotal evidence of these kinds of heli downings, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a government or manufacturer who would admit their helis were vulnerable to small arms fire from the ground.

Incidentally, I read an interesting book about the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan, written by the Pakistani officer in charge of covertly conducting and coordinating the guerilla war. The local mujahideen managed a total of zero hits with Western Blowpipe (I think that's the name) missiles. Stingers were much more effective. But they also had a lot of luck with short-ranged antitank weapons, as glamourised in 'Black Hawk Down'. But specific mention was made of how many easy kills were achieved by hiding on a mountain slope and firing down onto the top of the helicopter. Much more chance of hitting the vulnerable rotors'n'motors that way.

Like Pete, I couldn't put my hand on the source, though I recall reading about helicopters going down (Vietnam) when the crew were shot. That could happen with small arms.

In Vietnam, numerous Army helicopters were brought down by small arms fire. The Viet Cong and NVA used a tactic called "dark sky" against helos and jets. When an enemy a/c was nearby, everyone fired straight up with their small arms, even if they could not see a target. The idea was with enough fire going up, the a/c was bound to fly through it. The pilots could not see this type of fire and usually found they were in it when they started taking hits.

A long time ago, I had an NCO who, as crew chief on Hueys during the war, claimed he was shot down 3 times. He said the only damage they found on 1 aircraft was a single .45 cal hole in the transmission. The Marines had fewer losses because they were smart enough (for a change) to use aircraft with duel drivetrains. You may want to check out personal histories of helo pilots.

Iraqi "farmers" reputedly brought down an AH-64 during the first month of the 3rd Gulf War (W's invasion). It was clear that the battalion size attack was prroly executed with several choppers lost and one forced down. It's anyones guess what weapons actually did the key damage. For example, it could have been a well placed (lucky) RPG hit.

I recently read a book in which is written that an NVA soldier brought down two hueys with an RPD (no, not RPG).

The Apache attack that everyone's refering to resulted in 1 downed Apache ("golden" 20mm through the floor and into pilot's foot) with multiple AH-64's being heavily damaged. This was during the beginning or end of the big dust storm that held up operations for several days and the Iraqui's had executed a perfect ambush by surrounding their tank formation with towed AAA which recon could not see.

Back to the original topic, there are several annecdotal accounts of helicopters or even transports being brought down by a rifle in Vietnam & Afghanistan. Relatively early in the Russian war in Afghanistan, several MiG-27 Flogger (the ground attack version of the MiG-23) were brought down while making attack runs. Unlike the Su-25 Frogfoot, it wasn't purpose-built for the task and when one engine sucked in a round or 12, it would grenade and take out the other engine or control systems.

Ground fire was a constant threat to Huey's during Vietnam - which is why troops started sitting on their helmets or flak jackets.

Wyatt

One thing that always interests me is.. *if* a platoon fire wildly straight up in the air... surely those round come down in your general area too?

Static Tyrant - What was the name of the book on the Soviets in Afghanistan? Title and author would be great please??

Thanks
Frank

Gadge, no one ever accused the commissars of common sense. BTW, in the 70's the US Army also taught a similar tactic, only they told us to at least aim in the general direction of the a/c.

MONGREL1:

The book was (well, is...I have a copy)

Afghanistan THE BEAR TRAP
The Defeat of a Superpower

Mohammad Yousaf & Mark Adkin

First printed in 1992. My version is 2001. The press co. is Leo Cooper. Mine only has a British price on it (RRP 12.95 GBP), although I bought it in Australia! - so I imagine it may be easy to obtain in the UK.

Blurb:
"This is the story of the defeat of Soviet Russia's forces by a guerilla force known as the Mujahideen during the late 80's.

"The author, Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf was head of the Afghan Bureau of Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence and was effectively the Mujahideen's commander-in-chief. He controlled the flow of thousands of tons of arms across Pakistan and into its occupied neighbour, arms that were bought from the USA with CIA and Saudi Arabian funds.

"For a clear understanding of the pitfalls of a major military intervention into one of the World's most primitive and hostile environments, you could do no better than to read The Bear Trap. It describes in detail the terrain, the training needed and how the Mujahideen carried out ambushes, assassinations, raids and rocket attacks deep inside Afghanistan territory.

"The lessons in The Bear Trap have never been more relevant after the US President declared 'The War Against World Terrorism'. It is mandatory reading for military planners and will fascinate all with a close interest and concern in events triggered by the attack on the World Trade Center."

Hope that helps!

Gadge:

How many Arabic weddings per year do you think there are? And how often do you hear of a reveller being shot by 'return fire' after all those automatic weapons are let off in celebration? it happens, but it is more of a 'freak accident' than a 'common occurence'.

The cost in wasted lead is probably more than the cost in human lives, if you will excuse me being cavalier about such a thing in wartime. After all, an 'army' like the VC has one main resource, and that is manpower. If it has to be sacrificed to win a battle, then that is all they can do.

Selling model rockets at work has taught me that, even on a 'still day' at ground level, nothing comes straight down...

On a scale that might be more familiar to anyone who hasn't studied fluid mechanics or meteorology - I have heard warnings that people should do more to look after their dogs on hot days. There might be a cool breeze at human head height, but it can be completely still down at the poor dog's eye level. So they can overheat, even die if ignored/forgotten/neglected, just because they can't get out of the dead heat near ground level.

The reason I ask is that I once read that a sizable ammount of damge in 'the blitz' was actually caused by AA fire on the way back down.

Obviously I know theres a fair difference between 7.62 and 40mm bofors but I still wouldnt like to be under a solid lump of lead dropped from a great hight.

I supposed you'd have to be firing *directly* up at near to 90 degrees to be at any risk though..

I'm actually interested to know how many people *do* die from over exhuberent 'wedding fire' now ;)

To add to Wyatt's info:

One of the reasons that the Apaches got bushwhacked so hard was that in that particular case, somebody on the Iraqi side had gotten wise, fast, after the first few chopper raids, and had villages flash their lights off and on when the Apaches were approaching, to warn those further away to get ready. Also, doctrine for the Apaches appeared to be to fly directly over power/telephone poles, so as to avoid the lines; the Iraqis picked up on this, and concentrated their AA fire right above the poles.

It's instructive to note that even when getting hammered in an ambush like that, only one Apache was downed (20mm through the belly armor and at least one in a rotor, and it was able to make a decent landing, while all the rest made it back in various states of damage. Modern American choppers are pretty well armored; small arms fire is almost more of a nuisance, but still might have a very, very slim chance of bringing one down. Heavier stuff (RPGS, 20mm+ autocannon) is another matter entirely.

Thanks NVDoyle - I hadn't heard HOW they had managed to get them. Looks like the cavalry fell into a trap that has ensared many armies over the millenia - they got predictable.

The "non-traditional" communications you described as well also illustrates the dangers of not thinking about "low tech" options like motorcycle dispatch riders and using cell phones to let your side know that the enemy is moving into your area. (Iraq & Gaza).

Wyatt

Hi

The bit about "what goes up must come down" is sort of correct. It is a well known factor that AA going up often comes down and kills innocent civilaians(always blamed on the target!). However, what you are talking about is a round going up and coming down IN THE SAME CITY.

The Shooter is rarely at risk. Shooting "straight" up, only needs to be, even in still air, 1 degree off "straight" to miss the shooter by kilometers!

R

I seem to remember in Brennan's War by Mathew Brennan (1st Air Cav 1965-69) that he was told by OH-6A (Cayeuse) Scout pilots that they would get shot out of the sky all the time and that they missed their OH-13s (Soiux) which, with their framework, was less likely to take damage. Others have said the opposite was true.

Check into Al J. Venter's Chopper Boys. It deals with helicopter warfare in Africa (prints just months before the events depicted in the book/movie Blackhawk Down), especially Rhodesia, Angola, Mocambique, and Algeria. Lots of crashed choppers.

Static Tyrant- Brilliant! Thanks very much for that. That's the second endorsement of the same book that I've heard now, so this is going to have to be a "must buy" job :-) Thanks again.
Frank

I believe it was small arms fire that brought down the Puma attacking NP8901 in the Falklands at South Georgia.

The pilot did manage to get it to safety before he crashed however. Admittedly a Puma is just a transport helicopter so this should have been much easier.

My Dad was a Company Commander (Charlie, 24th) in Nam and got brought down by rifle fire in 3 Hueys in one day during Tet. They all landed fine with no casualties. Hydraulics just got shot up

Let's see, Brad Pitt brought one down with an AK in "Spy Games".

iirc, Tom Sizemore used an MP5 in "DreamCatcher"

Went on a military base tour when I was a kid.

We were told that a single round through a rotor blade, and/or dinging it, could cause the helo to become unstable, and to crash, or have a hard landing.

From the number of losses in Vietnam, that doesn't sound too far fetched.

Probably a bit harder than one would think to hit one spinning at high revs with a single bullet though. Fast firing MG rounds would be another matter altogether.

As ever, please excuse my poor english.

Here in spain, some years ago, a boy was in a hill, near his litlle town, and near an army camp. He saw one huey from the spanish army, who was coming over him, in a military excercise. The boy catched a stone from the floor and trhew it against the helicopter.

the boy take down the helo with a single stone.

The crew was able to land safe, but the media was making jokes about it several months

I think the British Army had a couple of choppers brought down in South Armagh, Northern Ireland, as a result of some sort of automatic weapon fire. Late eighties or early nineties I think.

John

I think Rambo took out a helicopter with a rock, too :)

Man, can you imagine the vulnerabilty of V-22 Ospreys dropping off troops? I just don't understand why they went with rotors instead of the proven Harrier technology.

On a barely related note, A couple of years ago, Albuquerque got its first Krispy Kreme. Albuquerque's west side still has big open areas (getting smaller all the time), so their was a big empty field next to it.

Which police in a helicopter landed in on a doughnut run :)

From: g2mil.com/RPG.htm

Helicopter hunting

While the RPG was designed to kill tanks and other combat vehicles, it has brought down a number of helicopters as well. During the fighting in Mogadishu, Somalia in October 1994, the two US Army Blackhawk helicopters shot down were by the RPG. In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen found that the best anti-helicopter tactics were anti-helicopter ambushes. The first variant was to identify likely landing zones and mine them. Then the Mujahideen would position machine guns and RPGs around the landing zone. As the helicopter landed, massed RPG and machine gun fire would tear into the aircraft.( 14 )

If the Mujahideen could not lure helicopters into an ambush kill zone, the RPG could still engage helicopters. The Mujahideen found that a frontal shot at a range of 100 meters was optimum against an approaching helicopter.( 15 ) As before, the more RPGs firing simultaneously, the better chance of a hit and escape from an avenging wingman.( 16 )

Should the helicopters be flying further away, it was better to wait until the helicopter was 700-800 meters away and then fire, trying to catch the helicopter with the explosion of the round's self-destruction at 920 meters distance. Chances of hitting a helicopter at this range by the self-destruct mechanism were very limited, but they served to discourage reconnaissance helicopters and air assault landings, particularly if a SA-7 Strela or a Stinger shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile was also firing.( 17 )

Yes if you fire enough RPGs at a helo sooner or later your bound to hit one, or two.

"Man, can you imagine the vulnerabilty of V-22 Ospreys dropping off troops? I just don't understand why they went with rotors instead of the proven Harrier technology."

Fuel consumption, maintenance and weight. A Harrier simply can't hover for very long at all; it's a huge strain on the engines and it eats fuel at a mind-boggling rate. A fully laden V-22 simply won't be able to hover for very long at all, let alone take off vertically. Note that almost all of the vertical demos you see of Harriers, they're utterly clean: no external stores, no gun pods, nothing. An engine big enough to keep a combat-loaded V-22 airborne by sheer thrust alone is going to be pretty big, and eat a huge amount of fuel...which cuts into your cargo capacity.

The V-22 has problems all it's own: it's a new type of aircraft, and the transition period of vertical to horizontal flight (and vice versa) is going to take some getting used to (and some crashes). Another issue (and I'm repeating stuff heard here, so I could be wrong...) is that the V-22 suffers from some pretty bad 'ring state vortex' problems, which severely limits its ability to descend quickly without getting thrown out of control or flipped over. And a fast descent is what you want in a hot LZ. Apparently, it can't descend as fast as the Blackhawk.

It may end up being an interim vehicle until something better is developed; the heavy-lift helicopters in use now are old airframes, and eventually no amount of remanufacturing and updating will keep them airworthy.

The thing is, helicopters for all their vulnerabilities are a proven technology. There's not a lot in the near future that will replace them, unless the V-22 turns out to be a sterling success. Given the growing pains of other successful weapon systems, I make no predictions.

It's interesting to note as well, that until the introduction of (relatively) large numbers of man-portable SAMs, the Soviet helicopter tactics were giving the Mujahideen fits.

Many years ago, during the soviet-afghan conflict, there was a spot on 60 minutes(or a similar U.S. show) that had an elderly gentleman that was claimed to be an anti-helicopter specialist. It was claimed that he brought down choppers by breaking the link to the tail rotor with jezzaile(sp?) fire. It was the same show that had the Afghan fabricating a AK-74 by hand tools and forge.

Ken

I have heard of an alternative to rotor or jets for near-vertical takeoff - a fanwing. This is basically a wing with a cylidrical set of blades built in. The plades both create lif and move the air, and apparently, it can be built to make near-vertical ascents and descents. Also, the fanwing looks like it might be relatively resistant to damage, as well... But we'll see how it plays out.

Another way is, of course, the ducted fan setup. DFs can be easily tilted, and a set of several DFs would allow quite accurate control of attitude as well.

-A.

Lads,

This is really great stuff. Many thanks to all. -Steve

as was seen in Black Hawk Down, one of the pilots (goveena, sorry if i have spelt that incorrectly) had to crash land his b-Hawk after the top was shot by AK fire.

Also i know from accounts in andy mcnabs best seller, Bravo Two Zero, that small arms fire can penetrate the bottom of a chinook as in the books the 8 man team sat on kevlar vests to protect there........well you get the idea.

Im sure if you shot the right spot on a helicopter it would go down.

Some interesting reading on Afghan tactics vs Soviet helos is in Anthony Cordesman's "The Lessons of Modern War" ,the volume dealing with Soviet-Afghan war and the Falklands.

An excellent documentary on the Soviet Hind is run quite frequently on Discovery Wings cable channel;lots of film footage of helos being bought down by mujahadeen,as well as interviews with Soviet Hind pilots that flew in that conflict.Highly recommended.....

One anecdote related by an ex-pilot on this program concerned an Afghan boy that was caught in the open by a Hind but still stood his ground,aimed at the helo,and put a round into it (IIRC,the cockpit)with his rifle,even knowing he was probably going to die.

MD

Phillipaj

It was October 3-4, 1993, not 1994. Someone should remember.

regards

Upright

Tail rotors are the wink link, if you are a good enough shot to hit that on a fast-moving target.

The Afghan mujhadeen used the red star on the Hind as an aiming point for heavy calibre rifle fire. Seems the oil cooler was right there, and a hit from their large bore vintage sniping rifles would take out the oil system, and bring the Mi-24 down.
Corsair