TKindred | 31 Aug 2013 6:01 a.m. PST |
And no, this isn't some weird "History Channel" show. The article linked below discusses new examinations of Spanish early 16th century documents and the details they give about settlements they discovered in the New World. Thought you all might find it interesting as I did. link |
Lluis of Minairons | 31 Aug 2013 6:18 a.m. PST |
Truly fascinating Have you haver dreamt of being an explorer in those early times, when huge extensions of the world – and their inhabitants – were unknown to each other? |
korsun0 | 31 Aug 2013 6:34 a.m. PST |
Wow, that is amazing. As Celts were good seafarers I suppose it is entirely plausible? And the figures exist for all the relevant parties too! How would that be for a campaign? |
Florida Tory | 31 Aug 2013 7:03 a.m. PST |
There have been legends about Welsh colonies in North America for a long time, but no real evidence. It is fascinating to think there might be some kernel of truth behind the stories, however much they have became corrupted in the telling. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc Rick |
nnascati | 31 Aug 2013 7:14 a.m. PST |
I think we are finally beginning to learn just how much went on here before Columbus, but only scratching the surface! |
CLDecker | 31 Aug 2013 7:32 a.m. PST |
Well it was SC not Georgia and the flood of pop-ups made it a PITA to read but interesting anyhow. |
TKindred | 31 Aug 2013 8:07 a.m. PST |
My bad. I was multi-tasking this morning as I posted that. And yeah, the pop-ups are a PITA but once you wade through it, it's some interesting stuff. |
Grelber | 31 Aug 2013 8:17 a.m. PST |
Good! Historical justification for using my Irish to fight my Skraelings! Grelber |
SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER | 31 Aug 2013 9:02 a.m. PST |
Isn't there a carved stone in the upper Mid West? (Think Illinois) They claim it has Celtic carvings too IIRC. |
Roderick Robertson | 31 Aug 2013 9:30 a.m. PST |
According to America BC (link), just about everyone got to America before Columbus. |
DeHewes | 31 Aug 2013 9:48 a.m. PST |
Not far from where I live in NW Georgia is a state park on Fort Mountain. There is a stone ruin there that the park guides refer to as the "Welsh Wall" because of its apparent age and lack of resemblance to any Indian sites. Again highly unlikely, but nice to see the links to the Madoc legend so close by. |
Bowman | 01 Sep 2013 3:24 a.m. PST |
Jeez, The Heavner and Kensington "Runestones" have been debunked by scholars. The Georgia petroglyphs used to be cited as "evidence" that Atlanteans escaped from the sinking of Atlantis. Now the same stones are corroborating "evidence" that ancient Celts inhabited the Southern US. What's next? Stonehenge in Canada? Mayans in Georgia? (actual claims). It's telling that University based archeologists are not the one's making all these fantastic "discoveries", and that the "research" of these "discoveries" doesn't seem to make it into the peer reviewed journals. You'd think they'd be in the know. |
TKindred | 01 Sep 2013 6:10 a.m. PST |
Bowman, You should read the article I linked to. It's being done by professionals, not your History Channel "experts". But I will say this much: Perhaps it's time that the work of these debunking scholars be subject to some serious review work. Most of it needs to be updated and compared to more recent discoveries. The problem comes, as the article points out, when students at University learn the same thing over and over again without questioning it, and the professors teaching it never bother to see if, perhaps, new research and discoveries show the need to modify or even might refute what is being taught. For example, the Clovis Boundary. 30 years ago, well-established archeologists were banding together to heavily slap down anyone who dared to suggest that the Clovis Boundary might not be based upon fact. That absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Lo and behold, new digs and accompanying discoveries have smashed the Clovis theory. Yet, some folks still cling to it, just as those who deny any possible European influence in the New Worls still seek to undermine anyone who challenges their theories. Why? It's all about the money. Once those professors are established and have some books and papers published, then they have a vested financial interest in seeing that their work is never challenged. I know you have seen this yourself. The article linked to is a good one, and the evidence compelling. It certainly justifies more research and investigation into it's claims. |
Dr Mathias | 01 Sep 2013 6:45 a.m. PST |
I would think most archaeologists would think 'Sounds intereresting, lets see' rather than 'Not possible'. As a person working in academia, I can say with certainty there's some serious resistance to change in many disciplines. I wonder why some people feel persoanlly threatened if their worldview is challenged. |
TKindred | 01 Sep 2013 7:00 a.m. PST |
Dr Mathias, I experienced that epiphany of "resistance to change" some 30 years ago at University. It amazed me that some professors kept using the same material and syllabus for their class year after year without checking to see if anything new had been published that might negate or enhance their course material. |
Lion in the Stars | 01 Sep 2013 11:14 a.m. PST |
Mayans in Georgia? Well, the Mound-builder civilization is contemporary to Mayans, and the two civilizations share a lot of similarities in the way they build things. |
DeHewes | 01 Sep 2013 4:06 p.m. PST |
Trade networks connecting Woodland Indians of the Southeast to Mayans certainly existed. Maybe not a direct connection, but through various middle men. Grave goods from the Mississippian culture contain items such as copper (Upper Great Lakes) and obsidian (central Mexico). |
charared | 01 Sep 2013 4:33 p.m. PST |
Thanks TKindred! *Interesting* material I doubt I'd find on my own. Subsequent "conversation" here with knowledgeable TMPer's ALSO a plus! Thanks to all! Charlie |
Bowman | 02 Sep 2013 4:57 a.m. PST |
With all due respect, You should read the article I linked to. It's being done by professionals, not your History Channel "experts". The linguist word games of linking Duhare with Du'hEir as a proof of Irish settlement comes from a group called the "People of One Fire". Go look them up and some of their claims. They are hardly experts. For example, the Clovis Boundary. 30 years ago, well-established archeologists were banding together
Lo and behold, new digs and accompanying discoveries have smashed the Clovis theory. That's a straw man argument. Paradigms in science get overthrown all the time, but by research and discoveries. Where is the evidence here? A better example is the claim by Gavin Menzies that the Chinese treasure fleets discovered America in 1421. A lot of tortured logic and "what if" storytelling can't hide the fact that Menzies has zero evidence for his claims. Yet, some folks still cling to it, just as those who deny any possible European influence in the New Worls still seek to undermine anyone who challenges their theories. Why? It's all about the money. Sorry, but it's all about science. First off, the archeology clearly shows pre-Columbian contact with Europeans in such places as L'anse aux Meadows. It's not clear if there was any "influence" from the Viking contacts, or later contact with Basque fishermen. But, that's very different than the existence of successful Irish colonies that prospered for hundreds of years in the SE USA. We should see genetic markers from these people. In fact, we see the exact opposite. Mitochondrial DNA studies of native haplogroups show that North American settlement was not from multi-routes. Pre-Clovis occupation came from a single population coming from a Pacific coastal pathway. In other words, there is no genetic evidence of European genes mixing with the indigenous populations in the New World, prior to Columbus. May I suggest looking up Dr. Lawrence Strauss of the U of New Mexico. He is a good source for criticisms of the Solutrean Hypothesis. Well, the Mound-builder civilization is contemporary to Mayans, and the two civilizations share a lot of similarities in the way they build things. Trade networks connecting Woodland Indians of the Southeast to Mayans certainly existed. Maybe not a direct connection, but through various middle men. Grave goods from the Mississippian culture contain items such as copper (Upper Great Lakes) and obsidian (central Mexico).
Yes, well showing that pyramidal mound building is something shared with cultures all over the world is one thing and showing that obsidian from the Yucatan was traded up the Mississippi is all fine and proper. But that is not the claim being made. Architect and "scholar" Richard Thornton claims actual Mayans were living in Georgia and Florida, and built the pyramids there. Not just any Maya, but the Itza, of Chichen Itza fame. This lunacy has it's own website, just Google "Mayans in America". Oh ya, Thornton is associated with the People of One Fire. It all comes full circle. |
Bowman | 04 Sep 2013 1:29 p.m. PST |
Here is an article of the Oklahoma Rune stones that some may find interesting: link |
TKindred | 04 Sep 2013 8:10 p.m. PST |
As I said, some folks in higher education have a personal stake in seeing that the status quo is maintained. It isn't about science. For heaven's sake, look at how many scientists put their thumbs on the scale to weight evidence in favour of Global Warming, or Climate Change or whatever the latest word is. Scientists and archeologists and professors ALL are prone to shading the truth when it suits their purpose. The majority have been insulated in their own cocoons for so long that they, in my opinion, are resistant to change, to new theories, out of fear. It's especially noticeable the higher up the ladder one goes. Those folks feel because they have gained a certain stature, and have an alphabet behind their name, that they are as demi-gods, untouchable and not to be challenged on their assertions and work. |
Bowman | 05 Sep 2013 2:23 a.m. PST |
Tim, Does this conspiracy theory extend to all the sciences, or do you just suspect the motives of archeologists and climatologists? So you don't think medical researchers at, say John Hopkins Medical school are actually trying to cure cancer, because that would threaten the "status quo"? Researchers at my alma mater of McMaster University are not discovering the genetic basis for autism because they are resistant to change and new ideas? Etc., etc. Instead of accepting any unsubstantiated claims that you yourself may find intriguing (a process called confirmation bias) please show me the evidence. How did Dark Age Irish settle for generations in the southern US, up until the time of the Spanish explorers, without leaving any physical traces of their existence? How come there is no evidence of generations of European occupation, via techniques like mitochodrial DNA analysis? Please provide a photo of all these petroglyphs supposedly showing "Gaelic writing". And while you are at it, please explain how archeologists from a modern university would want to suppress findings such as "Dark Age Celts were in South Carolina", or "Mayan cities and temples existed in Georgia" or "Vikings were in Oklahoma". How would they benefit from that? I don't know where you went to school, but around here, any findings of such importance would actually be career making, and not career breaking as you seem to suggest.
..and the evidence compelling Eagerly awaiting any evidence you may have. |
Thomas Thomas | 05 Sep 2013 12:07 p.m. PST |
I'm afraid Bowman has once again dashed romance & consiparcy those internet staples with hard science. Read 1491 it covers the DNA evidence. Native American populations had a very restricted pool. It limited resistance to various illness on many levels. There is very little big money to be made in science and none at all in merely confirming what is already known. Crack pot theories pay much better (and get you on TV). No competent climate scientist denies global warming only the causes are in serious question (all the money is in debunking it by the way
) TomT |
Nikator | 05 Sep 2013 3:55 p.m. PST |
What ThomasThomas said. The only folks who deny the reality of climate change are those who have been paid to do so by Big Oil/Big Coal etc. The folks who deny human agency in the process are mostly in the same category. Mostly, not entirely. |
Lion in the Stars | 05 Sep 2013 7:53 p.m. PST |
There is some serious resistance to new evidence and ideas overturning 'name' theories, usually by those academics whose career was made by the earlier theory! Failing to understand that is inexcusable. Classic example, the discovery of Troy. |
Bowman | 05 Sep 2013 8:29 p.m. PST |
There is some serious resistance to new evidence and ideas overturning 'name' theories
That's how it should be, is it not? A new theory will supplant the old, established one by virtue of explaining the observations more successfully. That doesn't mean every new idea is of equal merit. Classic example, the discovery of Troy. I think you have that the wrong way around. There was no reason to believe Troy was a real place until Schliemann's discovery. Once Troy was discovered, acceptance followed very quickly. What that proves is that "evidence trumps non-evidence". Does Plato's mention of Atlantis automatically guarantee it's existence? In this case, asking, "where is the evidence?" is the best way forward. |
Bowman | 06 Sep 2013 4:09 a.m. PST |
Looks like the Welsh were in the Americas very early too, as the "evidence" for "Welsh speaking Indians" clearly proves. link (Surely, Dark Age Scots can't be far behind). It's telling that these stories coincide with a growing nationalistic revival back in the home country. |
Oh Bugger | 06 Sep 2013 7:45 a.m. PST |
"It's telling that these stories coincide with a growing nationalistic revival back in the home country." Not really they are quite old and reappear every now and then. The cycle is mostly long enough for people to think its new information. They appear in the popular press or low end TV rather than as part of nationalist propoganda. My copy of Madoc – The Making Of A Myth by the late Professor Gwyn A Williams was published in 1979. It begins with the confection produced by John Dee to support the imperial claims of Elizabeth I over territory in the New World. No doubt in 30 years time someone else will 'discover' the Mandans were Welsh or Irish or tell the world they have found Atlantis. Some stories have staying power. |