"A Modest Suggestion for HCon 2014" Topic

You know, I have read a lot of whining about bathroom cleaning at Historicon. Up to now its been of no concern, since I live thousands of miles away. Since I've decided to go to HCon next year now, I rise to make a suggestion.

Is there some way WE, the attendees, can improve the situation? Because if its a matter of swabbing the deck or throwing out the trash, I'm willing to help. Instead of finger pointing or kvetching, I'd RATHER help.

If every able attendee took ten or fifteen minutes out of the con to help, would it make a difference? If 10% helped, would it make a difference? I think so, and I'm willing to do some of it myself. Who's with me?

Flush the toilets, lift the seat if urinating in the toilet, wipe up if you miss the toilet, clean up around the sink, and be courteous. If you clog the toilet, own up to it and ask for assistance. These would go a long way towards helping the situation. But cleaning up after others: no way.

If everyone who goes to the Con pays 50 more each they could have an attendant 24/7 at the restrooms to keep things clean. Problem solved.

In fact, an upscale place with a ton of people at a con should be doing that anyway. At $10 USD per hour it only costs $240 USD per day to have one staff member there to clean restrooms and they can bounce between several locations.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

All the suggestion Condo mentioned above are all good rules to follow. Everyone should already be following them anyway through life. But sorry there Serge, i dont take time off work to go to a convention to relax and destress only to pick up after a bunch of grown manchildren who cant pick up after themselves for free. Wouldn't even do it if it got me into the con for free. Sorry. But everyone can pitch in by doing whats right in the first place. After that, the convention hall hosting the show has to do their part. If bathroom checks every 30 mins aren't enough then every 20 mins and so on.
Just my two cents from history/experience.

Grimm

I have to say I am in the camp of folks having some courteous manners. Pay attention to the what you are doing. That is half the problem right there.

And please wash your hands. You are going to be playing with other folks, sharing dice, figures, what have you.

Matthew

Maybe a team of volunteers that have to work for a few hours a day. Comp the convention fees. Even if they just handle attendee relations and notify the convention hall of issues like bathrooms needing cleaned and restocked.

They can just wonder around with shirts or badges and keep an eye on the place for their shift.

Depends.

One of the issues was that the FCC staff started cleaning from the night before at 8am, by then the next day is under way

In all seriousness, I would post notices in the restrooms that say:

Please flush toilets after use.

Please do not urinate on the floor.

And perhaps:

Please notify site staff of clogged toilets.
Please do not use clogged toilets.

Of course it's absurd that we have to remind grown men of these most basic rules of public behavior, but it is obviously necessary. It would also serve to let them know that both the con staff and many attendees are neither blind nor indifferent to the problem.

Personally, if I saw someone doing any of the above, strong words would be said.

What condo suggests would go a long way towards easing the problem. But, given the nature of some of our gaming (or is that gamey) brethren, I don't see it happening. I guess we're left with giving the FCC staff the impression that we're a bunch unmitigated pigs…

Perhaps the FCC could barrow these signs from a client of mine. These are posted in the men's rooms of their North American HQ. And they are known for their world class engineering:

link

The organization pays the FEC a couple of thousand dollars to clean the place. They need to live up to their end of the contract.

Maybe I should just bring a portable UV source to check you folks who say you aren't the problem…

Post this.
"We aim to please.
You aim too, please."
Peter

You can get "fly stickers" for the urinals – looks like a big fat fly sitting in the toilet, and the psychology is that it improves aim. Works, apparently.

toiletmarksman.com

I do not recall this being a major problem at other Historicon convention sites. I have never been to the Fredrickburg location though. What is different about that site?

So let me get this straight…

You guys all clamored to leave "the dump" that was The Lancaster Host and move to various locations and now you're at FCC, as I understand paying top dollar for the facility and the hotel, and now you want the people coming to perform janitorial duty as well.

So why don't you also suggest that everone bring a rolled up 9 x 12 rug to put on the floor and two 24' by 24' Canvas tarps to drape from the pipes in the ceiling to cut down the noise…

And have your wives prepared covered dish dinners and bring down your barbecues to grill food so you don't have to eat the horrible food everyone is complaining about….

So this means you want the people to come down there, drive extra distance, pay more money, cook, clean and swab the latrines as well.

Why not have them do housekeeping services in the hotel as well.

I wonder if this issue is due to the size of the convention (I've seen this problem at the Host, VFCC, and FCC) or something else. I don't see this problem at the smaller conventions throughout the US that I've attended. However, i would think that a large convention center is set up to handle large number of people going to the restroom during a show.

So why is it only the large HMGS conventions that has the problem with the restrooms???? Or is it just Historicon?

I have a different modest suggestion:

Have the BOD of Historicon tell the FEC that the janitorial services were clearly inadequate for a convention of this size, and that each washroom must be cleaned at least twice a day.

And while they are at it, ask them to provide proper chairs!

Otto…
When you can find the perfect A1 end all, be all, convention site….let us know…

And guess what, it ISN'T The Host…

What Bowman said…

Jeez, Otto, read much? It was in the first lines of the first post, after all. The POINT of the topic…

You know, I have read a lot of whining about bathroom cleaning at Historicon. Up to now its been of no concern, since I live thousands of miles away. Since I've decided to go to HCon next year now, I rise to make a suggestion.

Is there some way WE, the attendees, can improve the situation? Because if its a matter of swabbing the deck or throwing out the trash, I'm willing to help. Instead of finger pointing or kvetching, I'd RATHER help.

Bitch at ME, if you want, but get it right.

So where did I get it wrong. YOu are asking the attendees to pick up mop and bucket and clean up right, and taking out the trash?

Bowman's right. Have the convention center do it as "do it or else" proposition, but don't go around asking attendees to do it. Granted, Condottieri's right in his comments too, but so what. People shouldn't beat their kids and spit on the sidewalk, but they do. So unless you're going to have bathroom monitors to find out who the miscreants are, you have to just take it as a fact of live and have the facility janitorial services do it. But don't go asking the attendees to do it.

You said "Is there some way WE the attendees can improve the situation? Because if it's a matter of wabbing the deck or throwing out the trash, I;'m willing to help. Instead of finger pointing or Kvetching. I'd rather Help.
If every able attendee took ten or fifteen minutes out of the con to help, would it make a difference? If 10% helped, would it make a difference? I think so, and I'm willing to do some of it myself. Who's with me?"

YOU said it, you want everyone to clean up the bathrooms and take out the trash. Sorry I don't pay a hotel or a convention center to have to do their work.

That's like buying a dog and I still have to bark."

Because if its a matter of swabbing the deck or throwing out the trash, I'm willing to help.

So, how exactly did Otto misunderstand what you wrote?
I for one am NOT willing to swab the deck or pick up the trash. That is what staff is paid to do. And if they are not, then that is another contract that HMGS got the shaft on.
Mot to mention that union regulations at the center would probably prohibit it.

Quoth Otto,

You guys all clamored to leave "the dump" that was The Lancaster Host and move to various locations and now you're at FCC, as I understand paying top dollar for the facility and the hotel, and now you want the people coming to perform janitorial duty as well.

As I said (twice now) I LIVE THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY. Five thousand, five hundred and eighty miles or so. I am not, nor have I ever been, associated with, or a participant in, Historicon. I am NOT 'you guys.' THAT is exactly how Otto misunderstood me. He didn't READ what I said. He just jumped in to bitch about some other guys.

All I see from a bunch of malcontents online is "boo-hoo its dirty." No offer to DO anything, just finger pointing. Screw that. If you're not wrecking the johns, who is? It sure the @#$! isn't me, here on my island. NOT MY FAULT.

I said I would want to DO something rather than blame others, and asked if anybody else would. If you won't, good on you, do as you wish. I am not the boss of you, nor did I claim any such authority.

I am not the boss of you, nor did I claim any such authority.

No, you just want me to pay for the privilege of cleaning the toilets.

Nope, I asked if you would. Whatever, I'll go whizz in my hotel room, and let you guys dick up the common areas.

Okay everybody….neutral corners….breath….Marquess of Queensbury Rules here…

I think we're onto something here…

#1 – Don't throw the used toilet paper and hand towels on the bathroom floor. Bring them out and stick them to the gaming room walls to help absorb the sound.

#2 – Having washroom attendants will help boost the sagging attendance numbers.

By the way, I liked the sign in Private Matter's post. The guy with the three-headed serpent would be a hit during the con's ladies night festivities.

Strange, my standards must be low. I used the rest rooms a few times and they did not seem different from the Host.

Maybe I was "shell shocked" from all the noise and appreciated the quiet in the john.

The best thing that people can do to improve the convention is to WHISPER in the Bull Pen to help hold down the noise.

He did seem to be channeling Ghidorah, with the three waving heads spraying wildly…

Sadly, Ghidorah will not reach the 50-year cutoff to be counted as 'Historic' until 2015 in America. :(

And please wash your hands. You are going to be playing with other folks, sharing dice, figures, what have you.

AMEN!

I noticed an improvement over the old Host in the restrooms. Some bright boy even counted the number of women around, and had the convention center designate one of the barely used ladies' restrooms as a gents'.

And, re: the food, it was okay. Not great, not terrible, but about standard for any convention. The beer was tasty.

All I see from a bunch of malcontents online is "boo-hoo its dirty."

So pointing out that there is insufficient janitorial servicing of a large convention makes one a malcontent?

Thanks Bowman and John the OFM, I didn't think I was that old that my powers of reading were gone.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that thinks this proposal is a little off. It's like asking me to go to a restaurant and buss the table of the guy next to me because his six yowie kids made a mess.

Just realize your a f-ing adult and dont all over the place. Cant imagine if your willing to do this to a public restroom the one in your house is any better…I've got 3 boys and they dont make a mess, hit the mark everytime.

Guys, my washrooms at work are often a mess. The fact that a couple of thousand people are repeatedly using them throughout a long day/evening, and they are mess is more a function of the staff not cleaning them more regularly than anything else. The organization addressed this and it appears nothing was done – or at least nothing adequate. As I said, I believe HMGS pays over $2 USDK to have the place cleaned. Either ask for a refund or have it detailed in the contract how many times it should be cleaned and what refund they get if it isn't.

I get it, Otto, you don't HAVE any better idea. And you're offended that I'm willing to try something. Or to suggest people do something.

Props to all who DID have some kind of idea:
Condottiere, Grimnar, 45thdiv and coastal2 propose taking care when you use the premises (certainly a worthy goal)
Private Matter, enfant perdus, ceterman, and 20thmaine suggest signage (including an example)
Bowman, historygamer, and murphy propose the FEC staff do the job they are paid to do (can't argue there)
Bunkermeister and CorSecEng considered more staff to help clean up
rmcaras proposed gamer diapers, or wasn't sure…
jlundberg pointed out a timeliness problem with the staff cleanup schedule that might be a factor
jdpintex asked if this was a large con problem or a Historicon problem (since he's seen it at several different historicon venues) [good question, how does HCon at any venue compare to other large conventions?]

plus a few wisecracks, you and me arguing past each other, and the OFM being himself (the shriveled black cantakerous heart of TMP)…

Thanks to all who made suggestions.
Sergeant paper

Actually Jd
This toilet issue is at most large events. Football games, baseball, basketball etc.
Tha fy sticker idea is good and works.
Clif

Your Proplem Paper is you don't understand the customer/vendor relationships. Let me try and explain it. In the following the "You is not you" but the person you contract service with.

Me Customer-- Me pay you you money, you do work.

That's the simple fact of it. If the Historicon Organization is not satisfied with the services provided by the facility then it's their respnsibility to insist that they improve, not turn around and say to the people already paying the money they have to do more. That's your suggestion. You're saying the people we pay money to aren't doing their job, therefore we have to do more.

You work in government don't you?

Clif,

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I don't see the mess at Footballs/baseball games here (college or Pro). As I haven't been to a basketball game in a few years, I'll just state that it wasn't a problem at that time.

I've only seen such unsanitary conditions at Historicon and in third world ****-holes. I certainly don't see this issue at the regional cons which are held in smaller venues but seem even more crowded than historicon.

I used to think this was an issue because the Host was a dump. Now I'm not so sure.

See, that's where we're talking past each other. You starting from 'what the Historicon Organization should do,' and I started from 'If there's a problem, what can I do?'

And no, I work in industry, I have since I got out of the military 26 years ago (in various industries, actually, plus I had a side business for a decade). How about you?

It is simply two fold… there is no "perfect" place…
the issues are simply:

1. Some people can be pigs and really wreck the place up… (shame on them). The worst part is… some of these offenders are the ones complaining the loudest… I'll just leave it at this… I stood next to someone in the front hall restroom who did nothing but complain about the filth, noise, heat and food and then proceeded to observe this person: pee on the floor, get soap and water everywhere and then dry their hands and miss the trash… only to leave their paper towel on the floor…Honestly, I was shocked that he even washed his hands…

2.The FCC does need to pick up their game too… regardless of how bad the patrons were… I rarely seen anyone (workers) going in to clean the restrooms.

I won't be cleaning anyone else's mess anytime soon… but on the same note… I WILL be treating the restrooms respectfully as if they were my own.

I think it's clear the FEC doesn't want us. Two years in a row with completely inadequate bathrooms, a noise issue they refuse to fix and food that is barely edible.

Looks like the Host is looking better and better.

Bathroom sign to fix problem:

LOOK WHERE YOU ARE AIMING!!

"LOOK WHERE YOU ARE AIMING!!"

Maybe they can't see where they're aiming?

Yeah, a lot of gamers seem to have trouble sometimes with Line of Sight issues…

And I'm not willing to assist with spotting for indirect fire. :D

No, that's a job for drones or spotter aircraft…

There is a little more to that than aiming problems.

I was playing in the Saga tournament on Thursday night. I went to the bathroom and noticed that the urinals were way too low for me to use (I'm 6'4") I went to the disabled bathroom stall instead. It was totally smeared with feces. I think someone had an accident when transferring from the wheelchair to the toilet. When I finished, I briefly looked for convention staff, but had to get back to my game.

On Friday night, I played in the Bolt Action Armor tournament. I needed to go to the bathroom, and I returned to the same stall to find it in just the same condition as I found it 24 hours previously! Again, no staff to be seen, and with 3 people waiting for my return, I wasn't about to go hunt them down.

Is this proper maintenance for a convention of Historicon's size?

Dear Bowman

Agreed, it is not.

But it is important to remember that the FCC is not as good a fit as the BOD likes to delude itself into believing. Most gamers do not realize that we are far, far, far from your typical group of attendees at these big box convention halls.

Most of this type of hall is built for the car, boat, train numismatist, antiques, quilter's or whatever show. The business model is you charge a large fee for the facility, and put in minimal maintenance and housekeepging, because you don't need it.

You don't need it because the attendees to the event beyond the exhibitors, drive in, spend a few hours, browse around, buy something, scarf some information and then leave. They go to local restaurants to eat or they drive home and they take their with them. That's both the stuff they buy and their internal wastes. They don't expect a crowd of 3000+ (if we are to believe the BOD) eating machines to descend on them and camp out for four days from dawn to deep night. We clearly overburden their model. There is never any problem with noise in the car-boat-train crowd either because at any time you may have a few hundred in the halls at any time, and most of them are silent, looking at stuff to buy, asking a few questions of the vendors and not bellowing out across the table for hours arguing rules.

So the facility plans minimal clean-up saff because hey-- for most other events they don't need it. They don't do something about the noise because they don't have to. Even if it gets noisy, you're talking to a salesman or an exhibitor about 2 feet, not 8 feet away, and everyone isn't talking at once.