"Cost to publish rules..." Topic

Say one had $10,000 USD to invest in publishing a set of rules. How many sets of rules – say hard cover, full colour cover, glossy paper, with colour art, graphics, etc, about 110-150 pages long.

Assume all art, graphics, text, etc already paid for – what is a representative cost per book?

I assume buying quantity would reduce the price per unit. But how low would it go? $5 USD per book, so $10,000 USD gains you 2000 copies, or is something like $25 USD per book more likely? ie. 400 book?

Anyone familiar with the publishing industry?

I could approach a publisher but since I don't have $10,000 USD they probably aren't going to give me a quote.

I am just looking for ball-park figures based upon above listed spec.

Is there a need to risk that much in this day and age? Wargames vault allows you to print on demand and offer pdfs with no cost to you. They take very little and you don't have to figure out how to get rid of 2k books.

This gets your foot in the door and gets your name out there. You can also order copies for your self so that you can distribute them or sell them at conventions. They are probably not hard cover but again work your way up to that.

I think you might want to work it out from how many you expect to be able to sell.

2,000 copies of anything is an awful lot to sell, unless your rules are incredibly popular.

My guess is the discounts won't make up for the time value of money, so better to do a smaller print run, at a higher cost, and re-print additional runs, if you sell out of the first batch.

I'd go with softcover, and perhaps even look at supplying them as 3-hole punched, to be put into binders by the end customer. That works for US customers, but not sure it will for overseas.

I agree, Lulu.com and similar print on demand sites might be the way to go.

I think Osprey is still taking submissions for their wargaming deal. They do all the heavy lifting and you get a cut. I have heard the formatting rules can be a pain. If the rules are historical in nature then even better because you can tap into their collection of images.

Rich at TooFatLardies has an affiliate program you might want to ask about as well.

Thanks. Well aware of Lulu (as a customer) and Blurb (as a client.) I've also had things like brochures quoted on by local print shops.

I am trying to determine the publishing costs for a hard cover book as described above to back my side of an argument. Something like that new Hail Caesar supplement. Assuming the costs of the art, writing, etc is already covered, and you are just taking the finished product in to get printed. Presumably there is a "set up" fee of some sort but then I assume the cost would be based upon units ordered, with some sort of reduction for quantity.

Through traditional channels I am assuming to get a good price one has to buy lots (ie $10,000 USD) but then the question is how many units does that get you? ie. What would be the unit cost per book?

Also be aware some of the costs can be eliminated by creative methods.

For example, if one publishes through Osprey they will provide appropriate illustrations from their vast library of art. Alternatively, nearly every government has a vast library of photographic images that can be used freely used as long as they are attributed to the source. Still another option is to use period art, which is generally free of copy right. Yet another method is to include pictures of your own figures where appropriate.

On the other hand there are obstacles you may not have considered. US letter size paper will not fit in most binders designed for the international standard A4 paper used nearly everywhere outside the US.

I'd suggest approaching several potential publishers, both online and print, and see what they tell you.

You'd be surprised how much info you can get from a phone call. If they want a down payment or even a commitment before the quote then ignore them and move on.

You don't need any money to get a quote. That is why they hired the sales people. All they do is quote all day long and hope that 20% of them order stuff. If your not a formal entity yet then just make up a company name. Introduce yourself and the company then ask to speak to someone about a quote. If you get the right guy then he can answer all your questions and is probably more then willing to chat with you. Remember people hate to work and chatting about their process looks less like work then what they normally do.

I have a friend who just calls random companies and ask to speak to the engineer. It's how he makes connections or determines if he wants to get into a field. He usually goes in with a question and the rest is just a bored engineer who loves to talk about what he does. No one usually wants to listen :)

As CorSec says getting quotes from printers is easy. You do need to have an fair idea of what you want, but they are likely to help you with the specifics.

They will also give you a bunch of quotes for different volumes – and obviously the cost per copy goes down with more copies. There are often set number of page multiples (often 16s) that are most cost effective too.

There are different types of paper, weight / thickness, finish (gloss / matt / etc ) but good printers will help with all of this.

I've not been involved in producing hard cover books (but have done magazine, catalogues, binders etc)

All suppliers know that their potential customers shop around and need 3+ quotes to compare, so they expect to produce quotes, and nothing come of them.

I would reach out to Dave Waxtel and Rich Hasenauer. They can give you some insights.

DM

Dear Alte Fritz

LISTEN TO MAKO 11!

I second his post!

Forget about the costs, the whole thing to be established first is expectation of sales. If you aren't good at sales yourself and have a good idea of the market, which is VERY fickle and VERY picky, you are playing Fiscal Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol.

Everybody out there thinks of the costs and thinks that "If you publish it, they will buy it." It's not so. I have two friends who've lost over ten thousand dollars on privately published books they can't get rid of.

If you want advice from anyone on this the best person to talk to is Sam Mustafa. He's done it three times so far as I know (Grand Armee, Maurice, and Longstreet) and if ANYONE knows the in's and outs of this it's gotta be him, AND he's a legitimate gamer besides. Most of all he can tell you about that all important question of sales.

First of all establish if there's a market for the rules you want to sell.

Finally, 110 pages!!!!!!!!! Ummmm… I see your first problem. Most people won't read more than four.

My experience in this has not been in publishing, but in my job I can't tell you how many millions of dollars in planning, engineering, manufacturing, transportation and advertisement have been wasted because no one figured out how many they could sell. I'm in the televisions broadcasting equipment manufacturing trade and we had one product where we spent over $5 USD million in development and at completion the salesman who brought up the product in a meeting said "I don't know if I can sell any of these."

Once, when I was in a marketing meeting where they were describing another product they were going to do and I asked the sales manager how many he could sell. He started telling me about all the places they were going to take the thing and which customers they were going to approach to see if they could use it. "No no,-- I said -- I don't want to know how you're going to try to sell it, I want to know if you could sell this product to everyone in the world who needed it, how many pieces in numbers, would that be." "Oh I have no idea!" The Sales manager said. I told the management committee, "Well then until we know that question we shouldn't spend one dime on it." Welll they made it, we produced 100 of them (they cost $8,000 USD a piece) and we sold two. The rest of them we scrapped.

Again-- Ask Sam, he knows all about this question coming and going.

I do know that for Longstreet Sam had it printed in the USA as the trouble dealing with overseas printers tested his patience. He has a large quantity printed to keep the cost down but then he has a great reputation so he can sell them.

Just be careful with quantities as the public is fickle and trends change like the wind.

Wargame Rule publication is rather similar to the film industry in nature, if not total dollars. The risks and rewards are not often clear, and the "audience" can be unpredictable and, as Brigadegames says, fickle, and very attracted to the latest shiny bauble.

It is also like the film industry in the sense that there are main stream productions with lots of "special effects" glossy promotion, backed by well-established companies bankrolling them that produce a fairly mundane product that appeals to a mass audience. The "productions" are very simple, follow well established concepts, they do not collide with any beliefs of the audience, and provide a number of nice explosions and loud bangs. As many summer "Blockbusters" attest, "Popular" and "Good" are often not the same thing.

The award winning films (and rules) often are independent productions that take risks, try new approches, are less glossy in production but much stronger on content. They often do collide with established concepts, and, naturally, appeal to a smaller audience.

The budgets for these two types of endeavors are very different. So are the goals. As an independent rule producer, you have to look at a smaller, but, often, more loyal audience. You must be adept at doing several tasks yourself-most notably lay-out and graphics. You should have some sense of promotion and advertising. You must offer new ideas and you must recognize the size of your audience and tailor your production costs to that reality. You must avoid the ego-driven temptation to go to a full-color, glossy, 200 page, "blockbuster" edition of your magnum opus.

I've published a number of sets of rules, and never risked more than $1,000 USD, and never failed to make money. One of the sets sold over 5000 units, and the fewest has been about 300 over a period of two years after publication. On the other hand, I've never produced a full-color, hard-cover, 100 page plus rule set, but targeted a 60-90 page, color cover, B&W interior, softbound rule set. My initial runs have never exceeded 500, but most sets have had either second editions or reprints. Set a price point where no more than 1/4 of your run pays all of your costs. Since distrubtors will take 40-55% of your retail cost you must predicate the 25% of your initial run gets you in the black. Less if possible-in general books, 1/7 is often the number. It can be lower in "specialty" areas such as wargaming. E-books offer a long term direction for rule publishers that will grow over the next 5 years.

If your goal is to get some new ideas out there, not lose money, but be happy with a few thousand extra dollars, and produce a good quality print product, but without multiple pages of full color eye-candy (The "loud booms and explosions" of wargame rule sets), and you are prepared to do much of the layout and design work yourself, and can afford a simple website (that you do your own design and layout for as well) then it can be done for ZERO risk and with the expectation of enough extra cash to finance your hobby, and maybe a bit more. With the coming of e-books the full color, even video enhanced, rule sets for small publishers are going to be increasingly possible.

Before you try to be the next GW franchise of wargaming, I'd think twice about dropping several thousand dollars of savings, or mortgaging the house. The total universe of miniature gamers (especially historical wargamers) is finite and small, and even a brief browse through the archives of TMP will underscore how ephemeral and fleeting are their interests. The best wargame rules ever written are, for many gamers, the NEXT set, or the set they are always going to write…someday.

On the other hand, if you have a good idea, by all means publish it, just treat it like a weekend in Vegas. Settle on the amount you're prepared to lose, and take joy in any winnings, but DON"T mortgage the house, or empty your 401K, to finance one more roll of the dice at the craps table.

One other thing. Look critically at your effort, if it's just one more re-write of another established set, offers few new ideas, exceeds 100 pages, if over half to book is "Army Lists", if the title is "(fill in any military weapon or uniform item) and (Fill in any military weapon or uniform item)," or the title contains the words Napoleon, Field, Empire, Cannon, Glory, or Battle, then I would advise even greater caution as that defines about 80% of all rules written to date and you will be lost in a sea of look-alikes.

Dear Altfritz,

PLEASE READ AND RE-READ REPIQUEONE'S POST. Print it, hang it on the wall next to your desk. If you are intent on going to self-publish, then mark his every paragraph and meet its conditions before proceeding to the next.

His advice is gold, and Heaven help you if you disregard it.

Even so, he has not touched on all points that need to be addressed as well.

1) NEVER SPEND YOUR OWN MONEY. You're starting from the wrong end of the equation. Choosing how much to spend for some arbitrary initial print run is just a waste of effort, and the money.

TVAG has been able to avoid losses, and serve the interests of some very narrow niche customers, by offering new titles by Subscription, at a well discounted price and sometimes other percs, to the limited number of participants. Rules that may make 50 people very happy, but which would be a desperate risk of money to produce blindly, are now possible with no risk to anyone.

And if the number of subscribers is large, and there are subsequent sales at retail price, then just print a few more at a time as needed.

2) YOU MUST THE MEANS TO PROMOTE THE TITLE. Nowhere did you mention advertising. How can you sell anything if people don't know it exists, and where they can find it?

The advice to create and operate your own dedicated Website is bang on, or at least be given a page of your own on some other Website that draws the targeted audience you need.

Once published, set up a Yahoo! Group to support the game, or at least affiliate yourself with an existing one dedicated to the same subject.

Another clearly important means of promotion--and one I freely confess to have never been able to follow as I know I should--is to go on the Convention Circuit to demo your rules.

You will first need not merely the time/wherewithal to travel, but all the necessary painted figures, terrain that's eye catching, and possibly banners or signs that call attention to your game. You're a year away right now from scheduling games with HistoriCon, GenCon, Little Wars, and others, though FallIn and Cold Wars are not so far away and could still be attended.

If you don't help create some buzz and demand, why should anyone buy your rules when they know nothing about them?

3) START CALLING AT LEAST THREE PRINT ON DEMAND (POD) COMPANIES. Prices are usually comparable, but some may be hungry enough to make some accommodations.

Print On Demand businesses usually require one-time set-up fees (not particularly expensive, though the number of components to your rules can add to those fees), but runs can be as little as ONE. Breaks do come, usually, above 100, but when a fair sized rule book runs you only, say, $6.00 USD each, why not spend only $300.00 USD for 50 copies and sell them through the Internet?

Are you thinking your rules can sell for $30.00 USD--or more--per copy? Are you telling yourself that 2,000 copies times your cover price means at least $60,000 USD in your pocket? Certainly you know you have to pay the Printers before you can sell even one copy, and then who do you sell it to? Are you thinking retailers and distributors will come to you? And even if they did, you are looking at selling them a few copies at from 40% to 60% off the cover price--and some will demand YOU pay the shipping, and others will say they'll take a few copies "on spec" and promise to pay you only after they make sales. Maybe.

I have made a satisfying and sometimes comfortable business by offering new titles by subscription, then printing only small runs of titles from a POD company, sold directly through my Website. My costs are manageable, predictable,
and never risk serious money. Putting $10,000 USD of your own dollars into a war games related product, sight unseen, has almost no risk at all--you are all but certain to lose it all for no gain whatsoever.

Dear Altfritz,

PLEASE READ AND RE-READ REPIQUEONE'S POST. Print it, hang it on the wall next to your desk. If you are intent on going to self-publish, then mark his every paragraph and meet its conditions before proceeding to the next.

His advice is gold, and Heaven help you if you disregard it.

Even so, he has not touched on all points that need to be addressed as well.

1) NEVER SPEND YOUR OWN MONEY. You're starting from the wrong end of the equation. Choosing how much to spend for some arbitrary initial print run is a waste of effort, and the money.

TVAG has been able to avoid losses, and serve the interests of some very narrow niche customers, by offering new titles by Subscription, at a well discounted price and sometimes other percs, to the limited number of participants. Rules that may make 50 people very happy, but which would be a desperate risk of money to produce blindly, are now possible with no risk to anyone.

And if the number of subscribers is large, and there are subsequent sales at retail price, then just print a few more at a time as needed.

2) YOU MUST HAVE THE MEANS TO PROMOTE THE TITLE. Nowhere did you mention advertising. How can you sell anything if people don't know it exists, and where they can find it?

The advice to create and operate your own dedicated Website is bang on. At the least, beg or borrow a page of your own on some other Website that draws the targeted audience you need.

Once published, set up a Yahoo! Group to support the game, or at least affiliate yourself with an existing one dedicated to the same subject.

Another clearly important means of promotion--and one I freely confess to have never been able to follow as I should--is to go on the Convention Circuit to demo your rules.

You will first need not merely the time/wherewithal to travel, but all the necessary painted figures, terrain that's eye catching, and possibly banners or signs that call attention to your game. You're a year away right now from scheduling games with HistoriCon, GenCon, Little Wars, and others. Fall In! and Cold Wars are not so far away, and could still be attended.

If you don't help create some buzz and demand, why should anyone buy your rules when they've heard nothing about them?

3) START CALLING AT LEAST THREE PRINT ON DEMAND (POD) COMPANIES. Prices are usually comparable, and some may be hungry enough to make accommodations.

POD is remarkably affordable, though I can't even imagine any new rules set just starting off with "2000" copies, and the resultant cash required.

POD businesses usually require one-time set-up fees for the covers, the text proper, and any accessories (card stock Cheat Sheets, counters, etc). This can run from $60.00 USD to less than $100.00 USD. These fees are not charged again, and print runs can be as little as ONE, though there is usually a somewhat higher minimum run (10 or so). Breaks do come, usually above 100, but a fair sized rule book can easily cost you only, say, $6.00 USD each.

And, finally…

4) DO NOT LOOK TO PUT YOUR TITLE IN STORES. This the ideal way to make money--for the retailer and/or distributor, but never the author.

Whatever price you put on the front cover, you will have to pay for the ISBN number (likely provided by your Printer) for public sales. That can be another hundred bucks. Your cover design will have to be able to support this additional graphic or look "wrong." This, plus the printing costs, all come out of your retail price. Then, any retailer will expect 40% off to give him some profit, but a Distributor (who will put copies into the stores--maybe) will want 60% off the price. You are now talking about a very small remainder for yourself, demonstrating the Ancient Wisdom that "To make a small fortune in the hobby business, start with a large one."

Sell them directly to your customers via a Website, and you will see far more return from far fewer copies than in any other way.

Naturally, all of us on this thread are curious as to the subject of your rules, but if Repiqueone's last paragraph applies at all, you're far better off just letting the whole thing go--at least until you come up with something original.

But not TOO original….

Best of Luck,
TVAG

Thanks for all the replies guys and the advice but most have missed the point of my question.

The key point is the specs: "Hard cover, full colour, art/text/graphics, top quality paper, about $100 USD pages."

Blurb will do that for $100 USD a pop. + or -

My question was how low a unit price can one expect to get for such a product via standard publishing channels, and how great a volume might be expected to get such a price?

As low as $5 USD or $10 USD or would it be more like $20 USD or $30 USD?

I made a mistake by mentioning "rules." The content is irrelevant to the question. (Sorry.)

Also, don't confuse me with the other Fritz and so get your hopes up!

Regards,

Howard

It will depend upon the quantity you purchase, how many pages with full color artwork, paper chosen, etc.

I suspect few, if any of us can provide you with that info.

You'll need to talk to the printer(s) directly for that.

Make sure to check their references too, since not all bindings are the same, and some companies will try to cut corners to lower your quoted price. Customers will then be very unhappy if their $100 USD+ book falls apart shortly after they've purchased it.

I have just bought Henry Hyde's book from Amazon for 16 UK Pounds. It is 450 pages with loads of colour photographs. Surely Amazon are making a few quid on the sale or why bother as it has just been published so not as if they are getting rid of old stock. So for a book or 450 pages it surely has to be less that a tenner to print. It of course depends on the print run.

Check with a local printer who has total printing and binding capability. Able to do glossy, color is wanted and proper tight binding. Some of these are lacking with some of the cheap companies or processes mentioned.

See what the price break is. start at 100, then 250 and up to 500. I would not go any more than that. Since most printing keep the projects on a computer file, there should be no problem getting an additional run if needed.

Local printing saves on shipping costs which can be quite high.

It does seem like it can be quite cheap.

Blurb's price is expensive b/c both they and the printers they employ get a cut, and I think Blurb is one of the higher priced self-publishing places out there. It is just a comparison price point, however.

Henry's book was probably published by the Miniature Wargames publishers and so they cut out one layer of middlemen right there.

I'll have to try Lulu (and others) but I have never seen a hard cover produced by Lulu, and some of the booklets I have gotten through them have been at the opposite end of the quality scale from what I'm looking for. I've used Blurb before and been satisfied with the quality.