"North Koreans in the Yom Kippur War" Topic

According to this article:

link

Israeli Air Force F4 Phantoms encountered North Korean pilots flying Egyptian MiG 21s during the Yom Kippur War. This has apparently been rumored (or boasted by Kim Il Sung).

According to Benny Peled, a former IAF chief, "about a squadron and a half" were deployed to Bir Arida in Egypt to protect the Aswan Dam and Egyptian south. However, he denies that they took part in any engagements. However, in his memoirs, Egyptian Lt. General Sa'adeddin Shazli stated that they did.

In one encounter, the Koreans didn't return one of the MiGs in the condition that they received it.

This might add an interesting wrinkle to an air combat game.

Wyatt

I wouldn't be surprised, since lots of pilots from various communist countries participated, and died in the various wars, e.g. Korea, Vietnam, etc.

I've heard rumors about Cubans and East Germans too ?

I've heard about Cubans as well but the war is not my area interest, so I haven't tried to do any research on the matter.

Good find, I never knew this.

Not surprisingly, if I recall correctly, Russians flew for them too, either during YK, or the War of Attrition (probably both).

Where is the actual sourcing? This is really a bizarre claim, and I don't believe a word of it.

tuscaloosa

Try this, the most recent link I have to this story. However it has come up on a frequent basis over the last thirty years.

link

Remember that many air forces sent pilots to fight in the region. For instance the Pakistanis flew with the Egyptians; Jordanians; Syrians and Iraqis: At least some of these scored kills.

, just realised that I linked to the same site as above. I will try and find another source but at the moment am working from my tablet while waiting for the quack to come and tell me if I can go home.

Fatman

Sorry, Fatman.

1. There's no sourcing for the claim whatsoever.

2. There's no benefit whatsoever for the Egyptians, for the Soviet Union, or for the North Koreans to do this. If the Soviets were willing to take the risk of sending their own pilots to fight in combat, why would they care enough about North Korean air readiness to turn over one of those slots to the North Koreans?

3. The story refers to the dogfight happening on 6 December '73, by which time the '73 War had been over for a month and a half.

4. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

@ tuscaloosa

1. The presence of a North Korean squadron in 1973 is also mentioned in Phoenix Over the Nile, A History of Egyptian Air Power 1932-94 by Lon Nordeen and David Nicolle. There was in fact an official Israeli press release way back in August 1973 claiming that NK pilots had arrived in Egypt. You can read about it in the Aug.15 1973 edition of the Toledo Blade: link

2. The Soviets had absolutely nothing to do with this, they had been expelled from Egypt by Sadat. There was no "slot" to turn over.

3. The story now refers to the dogfight happening on Oct. 6, 1973. Apparently it was a typo.

4. I agree. In fact, this article isn't particularly good IMHO.

The Toledo Blade is what passes for authoritative historical sourcing nowadays?

No, but the Toledo Blade archive was easily found on an internet search for period mentions. And when it references the article (two in fact) with (AP) it tells us that it relays an official Associated Press story which in turn tells us that there were indeed official Israeli and US statements at the time.

It doesn't tell us whether that squadron really was stationed in Egypt without a doubt, but it gives good pointers to where this story originated.

Hey, since you're a stickler for authoritative historical sourcing, your go: quote something authoritative to show that there never were NK pilots in Egypt. Internal Egyptian air force memos or North Korean diplomatic cables would be preferred thanks.

Libya provided Mirages to Egypt as well.

Not sure if their pilots went with them, or if Egyptians/others flew them instead.

Just because the war ended, doesn't mean there weren't subsequent aerial engagements afterwards.

They were very frequent, prior to the YK War, e.g. from roughly 1970 – 1973.

The Soviets did fly at least occasionally for them. In one famous, well documented incident, the Israelis set a trap for them, and downed many of their pilots.

They manned the Mig-25s, and Su-15s, amongst others. I don't believe the latter were ever involved in combat, but were apparently stationed to protect Cairo from Israeli attack.

I recall reading that the Soviets, Det63 I believe, flew the bulk of the Mig-25 Recon missions as they didn't believe the Egyptians were "technically savvy" or trust them to fly the Mig-25 or Mig-25RB.

"And when it references the article (two in fact) with (AP) it tells us that it relays an official Associated Press story which in turn tells us that there were indeed official Israeli and US statements at the time."

Ah, now you're making stuff up. The article claims there was an official Israeli press release. Says nothing about a US statement. The fact that the only place this alleged Israeli press release claiming NK pilots appears, is on the archives of the Toledo Blade, is a good hint that the Israelis later retracted their statement.

"Hey, since you're a stickler for authoritative historical sourcing, your go: quote something authoritative to show that there never were NK pilots in Egypt."

You want me to prove a negative?! Ha! I can't prove aliens haven't taken over your brain either, but that doesn't mean they have. Or maybe they have after all. Particularly gullible aliens.

Now Risaldar, do you have anything at all besides an article in the archives of the Toledo Blade that indicates North Koreans flew for Egypt? Anyone?

Now, now Tuscaloosa, maybe you could actually read the stuff I post before saying I'm making things up or that gullible aliens have eaten my brains.

1. If you read the Associated Press article linked to (Egypt using Korean Pilots, Israel Claims) all the way to the end, you will reach the one that is titled "State Dept. Caustiously Confirms Israeli Reports", the one that says "State department officials said there was some evidence that the report of North Koreans flying for Egypt is true."

The only one making things up is yourself when you say that being published in the Toledo Blade "is a good hint that the Israelis later retracted their statement". Any thing to back up that statement? Anything? At all?

2. In my first post I specifically mentioned Phoenix Over the Nile, A History of Egyptian Air Power 1932-94 published by Smithsonian Books in 1997. Do you want the ISBN and page number ? It's 978-1560986263 and 294.

3. You want more references? How about this one ?

Israel's Quest for Recognition and Acceptance in Asia: Garrison State Diplomacy by Jacob Abadi, Frank Cass Publishers, 2004, ISBN 978-0714685649

Part II, Chapter 5 – In the Shadow of the Korean Conflict

page 132
Pyongyang's sympathy toward the Arab states was not merely rhetorical. Occasional press reports alluded to the fact that military contracts between North Korea and the Arab states had been signed. According to Pentagon spokesman William Beecher, North Korean pilots on aircraft borrowed by the Egyptian Air Force during the Yom Kippur War engaged in a brief dogfight with Israeli fighters south of Cairo. Egypt's Lieutenant General Sa'adeddin Shazli confirmed in

page 133
his memoirs that North Korean pilots were involved in combat missions for the Egyptian Air Force during that war. The Israelis denied that they ever had any encounter with North Korean pilots. Benny Peled, a former Israeli Air Force chief, labeled President Kim Il Sung 'a liar' for claiming that North Korean pilots had fought Israel in 1973. According to Peled, between a squadron and a squadron-and-a-half of North Korean pilots was dispatched to Egypt with their MIG-2ls, about a year prior to the outbreak of hostilities, but they avoided combat with the Israeli Air Force and stayed in their base at Bir Arida, north of Aswan."

So in addition to two AP wire stories, I have two books from respected publishers referencing a named Pentagon spokesman, Egypt's chief of staff during the Yom Kippur War and the commander of the IAF in 1973 as saying there indeed were NK pilots in Egypt in 1973 though it is debatable whether they ever faced the IAF in combat.

You have nothing but implied insults.

Now if I was as impolite as you are, I'd think that one of us backs up his statements and one of us is a trolling muppet. But I'm not. So I don't.

Risaldar, first you post an article which says the Israelis claimed North Korean pilots flew for Egypt.

Now you post a quote from an Israeli Air Force Chief of Staff calling Kim Il Sung a liar for claiming that North Korean pilots had fought Israel.

There is nothing consistent nor first-hand in anything you've posted. It's all third-hand. For example, all Pentagon press conferences and statements are archived online, from the Department of Defense. If you show me there that a Pentagon spokesman made that claim, great. But posting something from a book (no footnotes – just a claim in the text) that a Pentagon spokesman said something *does not mean it actually happened*.

Tuscaloosa, your thick-headed trolling is wearing thion but I'll humour you for a second because I've been taught to be gentle with kids.

Clearly you do not understand the meaning of the phrase "there indeed were NK pilots in Egypt in 1973 though it is debatable whether they ever faced the IAF in combat", which would be worrying.

As for footnotes, yes the books are fully footnoted and all the statements are refered (though you'll probably ask me to produce a physical copy of the Jerusalem Post issue where the Peled interview was published). But you'll just have to heave yourself off that couch and go get the books.

Ooops, I'll have to go now. My alien brain-eating controller just flashed me a message: