"Livery of Margaret of Anjou?" Topic

In my reading of various WoTR books (and putting up with all the Real White Queen stuff on TV) the one female character that I really like, in terms of her resilience and sheer determination (even if some of her stories of survival make her sound more like a medieval James Bond than a Queen – though the one herring between the 3 of them and the knocking out of the kidnapper in the boat would make great incidents in a film) is Margaret of Anjou who seems very much to be an earlier version of Elizabeth 1's 'body of a woman but heart of a man' (obviously Yorkists will not like her!). Does anyone have details of her livery (if she had one). I have just joined the L&L so once I get my membership card will be ordering the various books that everyone reccommends

Margaret of Anjou was a woman. Obvious I know, but critical to the understanding of her place in 15th centry society. The right to bear arms and thus the accompanying heraldry was exclusively reserved for the males. A woman's only entitlement to arms was therefore from her father or husband.

Margaret of Anjou was the second eldest daughter of René of Anjou. Until her marriage to Henry VI, her arms (strictly speaking, arms belonged to a family rather than a surname) would be those of Anjou

From the time of her marriage to Henry, and thus becoming Queen of England, her arms would be those of Henry
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Livery was often (but not always) associated with the main colours of the coat of arms. We have very little information about livery colours (as opposed to coats of arms) so often liveries are "best guess". Given the predominant colours are red and blue then you could probably use those for any Lancastrian household troops.

Bear in mind also that the wearing of livery was part of the "livery and maintenance" scheme whereby a man would contract to serve a lord in return for the right to wear the lord's livery and the provision of food and accommodation (maintenance). As a woman, Margaret of Anjou was not empowered to issue such contracts, so she would not have had a retinue of her own. Any troops she might have indirect authority over would be those loyal to Henry VI or one of the noble lords loyal to him.

Good point of course! DOH

As a woman, would not her "arms" be a lozenge (diamond), rather than a shield?

Also, if she was the SECOND eldest, would they be differenced with a label?

Wikipedia (usual caveats apply) has the arms of Margaret. shown as those of Henry impaled with those of Rene of Anjou
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I think her troops would bear the livery of the King or the Prince of Wales.

How the arms of a woman were displayed at this date is not as clear as it may have been later. The lozenge is evidenced as early as this but is not that common, ovals or circles are also known but the normal shield shape is just as likley.

Relatively few women used any armorial display and those tended to be widows or adult female heirs of powerful men (mostly). It was not uncommon for a woman to retain her paternal arms in some form if her family were of equal or greater status than her husband, with the shield being divided (usually vertically or quartered) or by adding an inescutcheon or canton.

Good point about the label John but that does only apply to male heirs, all women referenced their paternal arms (or in VERY rare cases a mix of paternal and maternal) without difference because they were not 'personal' arms but displayed their family connection.

Unless there is other evidence for Margaret d'Anjou,
the arms of a married woman were vertically divided in two halves ("party per pale"?).
The right of the shield (from a bearer's point of view = in fact the left of the shield) shown the arms of her husband. The other part of the shield shown the plain arms of her father.

White and blue is the most likely as they are the livery colours of the House of Lancaster. Her son's troops wore red and black at 2nd St Albans and Tewkesbury.

Probably not a good idea to use red and blue as they were the livery colours of the House of York.

White and blue is the most likely as they are the livery colours of the House of Lancaster.

Yep, white and blue for Lancaster (thanks AY I'd forgotten!)

Probably not a good idea to use red and blue as they were the livery colours of the House of York.

I only suggested red and blue (not blue and murrey) because of the royal heraldry.

She used a silver swan as a livery badge (as did her son the Prince of Wales):
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