MiniPainterMatt | 24 Jun 2013 7:57 p.m. PST |
Does anyone know difinitively whether Bismarck was wearing the "Baltic" scheme at Denmark Strait and during its action against King George V? I have seen a lot of renderings online showing the black and white stripes as painted over hastily with medium gray. Most models, however, have the black and white vertical stripes in full color. Assuming the painted over version is the right one, did Bismarck see any serious action while wearing the black and white stripes? Thanks, Matt |
EJNashIII | 24 Jun 2013 9:12 p.m. PST |
Bismark was brand new in it's first action. If it didn't have it at Denmark strait, where would it? It had it when it encountered the Swedish Cruiser Gotland (obviously no fight with a neutral) on May 19. link 4 British Recon planes were seen by Prinz Eugen on May 21. picture The Germans repainted the ships that evening while in the fjord near Bergen Norway. |
hindsTMP | 24 Jun 2013 10:03 p.m. PST |
All sources I've read say the Baltic stripes were overpainted prior to leaving Norway and encountering the RN. For example, see the Steve Backer "Bismarck and Tirpitz" Shipcraft series modeling book. Turret crowns painted yellow; swastikas on forecastle and quarterdeck. The famous photo of the starboard side showing Bismarck down by the bow, taken after the Denmarck Strait battle, seems to show the hull a slightly darker gray than the superstructure. MH |
Timmo uk | 25 Jun 2013 1:53 a.m. PST |
I think EJNASHIII has his geography confused. The Denmarck Strait is north of Iceland, not off the Danish coast. There were no Baltic stripes on the Bismarck when she engaged HMS Hood and HMS King George V. The stripes were over painted although the bow and stern hull camo was left in place. |
Cuchulainn | 25 Jun 2013 6:14 a.m. PST |
No stripes on Bismarck at Denmark Straits. The darker bow and stern were also painted over so the hull was the same colour for its entire length. The false stern wave was painted over, but the false bow wave was kept. Click this link for more information: link |
Timmo uk | 25 Jun 2013 6:58 a.m. PST |
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hindsTMP | 25 Jun 2013 7:56 a.m. PST |
That site is nice, but doesn't seem to be completely correct. For example, photos exist showing the swastikas still painted on the deck. I would have posted one, but the site owner doesn't want the images downloaded. See link below. link MH |
Cuchulainn | 25 Jun 2013 9:05 a.m. PST |
That's because the paint that was used to cover the swastikas, is slowly being stripped and eroded by the salt water hindsTMP. Undoubtedly in years to come the swastikas (and all the paintwork) will disappear too. The red banner around the swastika was covered over during the passage to Norway, with the remainder being painted out while the ship was at Bergen. |
hindsTMP | 25 Jun 2013 9:12 a.m. PST |
That's because the paint that was used to cover the swastikas, is slowly being stripped and eroded by the salt water hindsTMP.The red banner around the swastika was covered over during the passage to Norway, with the remainder being painted out while the ship was at Bergen.
That occured to me, but it's just a theory isn't it. It seems strange that the ocean would evenly remove one coat of paint and leave the rest. I suppose they could have been different types of paint, but I would need more evidence, given the photo. What are your sources? BTW, note that the photo presentation on that site seems to confirm the hull being darker than the superstructure, which I believe was standard for the KM, both in early WWII and late WWI. It can't just be shadow, since the hull mid section is essentially vertical and still shows the same darker shade. I think the Backer book I quoted above gets this part wrong. MH |
hindsTMP | 25 Jun 2013 9:40 a.m. PST |
Form the Aldorfer site (linked to above), looking at the PDFs of correspondence with German Bismarck survivors / authorities, it looks like the yellow turret tops depicted in the Backer book are problematic. MH |
Cuchulainn | 25 Jun 2013 10:56 a.m. PST |
Hi hindsTMP, I would tend to be very careful when trying to judge colours from photos like that, but yes I agree about the superstructure being lighter than the hull, as you say that was the standard scheme for the KM. However, assuming it is the sea that's eroding the paintwork, why the paint is being stripped layer by layer was explained by the fact that the paint already removed was applied by the crew. In other words, it was "slapped on" under less than ideal conditions, the upperworks having the stripes removed while Bismarck was underway to Norway, the swastikas, remainder of the stripes, etc. while the ship was at Bergen. The original Baltic paint scheme on the other hand, was applied during the ship's winter 1940 refit at Hamburg, using the "proper gear" in a drydock under conditions which give it a much better chance to dry properly. In addition, it's more than likely the crew would have refreshed this over the months, effectively adding more layers to this paintwork. I can imagine the paintbrushes going like the clappers just before Hitler visited the ship on May 5th 1941 for example! :-) Compare this to the paint used to cover up these markings in preparition for the Atlantic mission
splashed on in a hurry – some of it while the ship was running at 20-25 knots – then buffeted by the worst seas in the North Atlantic for decades
Would it not be possible the paint never got time to dry properly? And it was thinner than the original coat; many pictures show Bismarck with the stripes still visible underneath the fresh paintwork. Maybe the paint is disappearing at the same rate all over the wreck, it's just that the layers under what was applied during Operation Rheinubung are more substantial? I would tend to ignore the yellow turret tops too. Some of the crew who survived said Captain Lindemann ordered the turret tops be painted yellow (again normal procedure for German ships approaching friendly airspace from the N. Atlantic), but the sea was so high it simply washed it off. I'm not pretending to be an expert here, all I can do is to listen to and read what real experts say, then try to decide who sounds the most plausible. Others could read the same sources, draw different conclusions, and I can't say they're wrong. And of course, real experts can be goofballs too! ;-) As for sources lol
sorry mate, I've read that much about the Bismarck over the years (ever since I was a wee boy), I wouldn't have a clue! |
hindsTMP | 25 Jun 2013 12:45 p.m. PST |
Backer (no footnote) says that the swastikas were temporarily covered by tarps, rather than overpainted. If that is the case, it might explain why they would be visible in the referenced underwater photos of the wreck. MH |
Cuchulainn | 25 Jun 2013 2:17 p.m. PST |
I'm aware of the theory the swastikas were covered by tarps, but I think the evidence goes someway to disprove this. Here is a link to a few photos taken of the wreck, which seems to show the grey paint wearing off the deck, revealing the swastika beneath
link |
hindsTMP | 25 Jun 2013 2:50 p.m. PST |
I see what you mean. It does look like peeling gray paint over portions of both the red and the white. Since it's on the teak deck, I wouldn't expect the gray to be primer (and thus underneath). MH |
Cuchulainn | 27 Jun 2013 6:15 p.m. PST |
I'm sorry Matt, your "Assuming the painted over version is the right one, did Bismarck see any serious action while wearing the black and white stripes?" got ignored there. The answer is no, Bismarck didn't see any major action while wearing the stripes. One other small detail
the funnel cap on Bismarck was silver. |
MiniPainterMatt | 02 Jul 2013 1:36 p.m. PST |
Thanks guys. Amazingly helpful as usual! Matt |
Jake1945 | 11 Jul 2013 7:05 a.m. PST |
Bismarck at Denmark Strait: Hull was Dunkelgrau 51; superstructure was Hellgrau 50; steel decks & turret roofs were Dunkelgrau 2; wood decks were natural teak; funnel cap was Aluminumbronze; boot-topping was Schiffsbodenfarbe III Grau 1; underwater hull was Schiffsbodenfarbe III Rot 5; false bow wave was white. Turret roofs were repainted yellow on May 25 as a Luftwaffe air-recognition feature as they expected to be under Luftwaffe air cover the next day. All the above colors accurately matched & available in White Ensign Models Colourcoats enamels. |