"RAAF to get new attack aircraft, as Labor ..." Topic

…releases new defence white paper.

"POTENT new electronic warfare aircraft that can freeze enemy missile defences over a huge area, the likelihood that the Navy's promised 12 new submarines will be a bigger evolved version of the Collins Class boats, and a more conciliatory approach to China, are key elements of the Gillard government's new defence white paper.
The document released today reveals that the RAAF will get 12 new Growler electronic attack aircraft instead of the original plan to refit 12 of its existing 24 Super Hornets as Growlers.

The government says that will not affect plans to buy around 100 fifth generation Joint Strike Fighters in the future.

Defence will get additional funding for the Growlers.

The number of options for replacing the Collins Class submarines has been cut from four or five to two – with the evolved Collins firming as the most likely but with an undertaking to include new technology that could well emerge overseas. The new submarines will be built in Australia.

The government will also bring forward replacement of the navy's Armidale Class patrol boats, which have been heavily used on border protection operations across Northern Australia.

That will be one of a number of key decisions designed to keep Australia's vital shipbuilding industry operating strongly when the three air warfare destroyers are delivered, and bridge the so-called "Valley of Death" expected when two giant landing ships now under construction are completed before the submarines are ready for construction.

Replacement supply ships may be built in Australia to replace HMAS Sirius and HMAS Success.

The white paper makes no commitment to acquiring a fourth air warfare destroyer.

Neither does it make a firm decision on long-running proposals to acquire long-range surveillance drones to watch over Australia's northwest.

But Australia still plans to replace the RAAF's ageing AP-3C Orion maritime surveillance aircraft with Boeing P-8A aircraft and unmanned aircraft, with a final decision due later this decade.

The white paper is much more conciliatory towards China than the last strategy document released in 2009, which warned against China's growing military might in the Asia Pacific region…
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

I wonder if Australian policy is still that there is no place for armoured self propelled artillery on the modern battlefield….

I guess the neighbours didn't get that memo:

… current planning still has self propelled artillery in each regular combat brigade. Just need to find the dollars. And we work closely with the Indons and others to ensure the other guys don't become our neighbors.

You know what they say Sparker

Towed artillery………………….it's a drag

Probably one of the dumbest moves by Defence in a long line of dumb.

Has there been a suggestion that we are going to have artillery duals with China, our largest trading partner? I must have missed this one. We could probably fire a few self propelled sexists at them .We seem to have plenty of them to spare.

YouTube link

Hobart Class Air Warfare Destroyer vid

Well those 3 Hobarts will definately put the wind up the People's Liberation Navy . I for one,sleep safer in my bed at night knowing that one day we will have 3 of the most wonderful ships in the world sailing the seven seas.

Does it really take a full third to half of the air fleet for ECM work these days?

Lion,

Sorry, but Australia has 24 FA-18F SuperHornets and will be getting another 12 fitted as Growlers … but we also have 71 remaining FA-18 A/B Hornets and 40 Hawk lead-in trainers. So no, not a third of the fleet in ECM. The original plan was to have an all f35 fleet but delays in delivery posed a threat so the SuperHornets were adopted.

The ships are not designed to scare the PLAN on their own. They are an add on module to a coalition fleet which will be more than capable to dealing with the Chinese navy. Its the land and air forces which worry me.

I might have been just kidding..why are we in the PLAN scaring business at all?

I guess this will help the mad monk stop the boats. Was there any mention of the purchase of tow lines for the patrol boats?

why are we in the PLAN scaring business at all?

If you don't know the answer to that one, Cardy, then might I suggest you ask some Vietnamese, Tibetans, Taiwanese or Cambodians next time you're eating out….

My mate wrote a pretty good article on the SPH question. basically it was about Defence politics..

link

Well sparks they obviously don't have a lot of really useful iron ore so we are going to go into coalition with the Tibetans et al for what reason? Pray tell how many modern destroyers do the Tibets currently have up and running?

I obviously don't eat out anywhere near enough ,or as much as you obviously do, as my current understanding of Australian foreign policy is obviously not very up to date or even realistic. I really thought we were the Chinese peoples' friend .
Next time I am in the Lilac Chinese ,getting a takeaway, in Goulburn I will be sure to ask the owners for a foreign affairs update.Perhaps I should enquire of the obviously Asian proprietors of the 2 Dollar shop. I imagine they are sure to know. Thanks for the heads up Sparker I would never have imagined these people to be a good source of info, though sometimes we do find each other a bit hard to understand.
I do usually read books for info about these sorts of things and stick to reading the menu and the wine list and the eating of food in restaurants but from now on I shall attempt to engage the staff in a bit of analysis.
Thanks again Sparker for this insight, as Holden Caulfield would say "you are a Prince".

Heheheh, he said Growler.

Oh dear my good Cardinal, here was I thinking you had a sense of humour!

My point above, which clearly overshot by about 30 degrees of elevation, was in answer to your question about why we should want to be in a position to give the PLAN pause for thought is that China, in the last 40 years, has invaded all of these countries mentioned…

And I doubt not for a second that immeadiately prior to the T-54s rumbling over the customs posts, they were on oh-so friendly terms too…

And, with your 'quip' about the Tibetan Destroyers, actually you really rather make you point for me – Do you think Tibet would now be part of PRC if they had had a credible and balanced defense capability ?

Have I made my point plainly enought for you?

Perhaps I can do no better than repeat some ancient wisdom for you:

'He who desires Peace, prepares for war'

And, to come full circle, in today's world, a navy without a full suite of network capable AD Destroyers, and an Army without SPGs just doesn't count as anything but a constabulary force….

Navy or no navy, when China roars we will go down because our economy is now so linked to them. They have us by the goolies and we still keep selling our companies to them. BankWest anyone?

… when China roars we will go down because our economy is now so linked to them.

They used a variation of this claim prior to WW1, saying that war was impossible because all the economies of Europe were so closely intertwined.

That didn't stop the war from starting, and it didn't seem to severely impair the countries during the rebuilding, either.

China is China, 中国, the 'Middle Kingdom,' center of the world. They're trying to get back to the point where China is a first-world nation. They're pretty darn close, but they need another two doublings of household income yet. About another 15 years. Hopefully they will really start cranking down on their environmental regs, Chinese industries are woefully inefficient compared to the US and Europe. Far more raw materials and energy inputs for a given output.

The point is, Australia would commit economic suicide by joining any Asian war against China as they're our major trading partner and much more important to Australia's future than Uncle Sam who often tries to prevent Australian agricultural or other products from coming into the country.

And why does ADF need a token SPG capability? It's like the daft token heavy tank capability – 59 M1 Abrams, of which half are in storage.

Last time I checked we're an island and tanks aren't exactly useful in this environment.

I'd rather scrap one of the 3 combat brigades and invest in another squadron of fighters or more warships.

A good thing China's financial bubble is about to burst, I'd say…..

Not good for Australia as we're relying on Chinese to prop up the economy.

The non-mining South Eastern states are all struggling to various degrees.

Exports to China shielded us from GFC in 2008.

Economists are now saying the possibility of recession in 2014 is at least 20%.

Tanks save lives

Paratus

"Last time I checked we're an island and tanks aren't exactly useful in this environment."

?

So how do you explain the UK or Japan?

Britain had a role in Continental Europe as well as expeditionary warfare.

As for Japan, it seems to be anti-invasion duties. And it's a sizeable force (800 tanks, and 1 dedicated Armoured Division).

Australia has a mere 59 tanks, of which half are in storage.

Assuming an invasion of Australia does occur in the North, it's not tank territory, especially during the wet season (Oct-Apr).

And if an opponent breaksout of the tropical area and into the desert areas (and then into more populated areas of NSW, QLD, Victoria), 59 Abrams are not going to stop them cause anyone that can land an invasion force in Australia is obviously going to be able to field a huge force (and aaccording to Paul Dibb (a very respected Australian defence analyst), only USA has resources to invade Australia.

As stated I'd gladly trade an army brigade and the token armoured force for an extra fighter squadron or 2-3 more frigates or destroyers.

Pretty sure I operated leopards in the north during wet season just fine thanks.

If anyone's landed in north, it means RAN and RAAF are no longer combat capable.

And 26 or even 59 M1 Abrams are not going to stop the opponent, especially as they will obviously have air superiority and will have ability to field a lot more than 60 tanks.

"…..China, in the last 40 years, has invaded all of these countries mentioned…".

I believe they like to think of it a bit more like extended-stay tourism, with weapons purely for self-defense purposes, since it is a dangerous world out there. Kind of like what is currently going on in their border "vacation" with India.

They're kind of like the inlaws that you can't stand, but have to be polite to anyway, since the repercussions of annoying them can ruin your life.

"….only USA has resources to invade Australia".

Hmmm, not a bad idea, since a small island getaway would be nice, but on second thought, no, due to sequester, and since you have so many of those poisonous snakes, spiders, and sea creatures down there. Plus, I'd probably have nightmares about falling off the bottom of the world, and would have to learn another variant of English.

and would have to learn another variant of English.

I though Americans had to learn a different variant of English each time they crossed a State boundary? :p