"Uniforms of the Reichsarme States (SYW)" Topic
25 Posts
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Don Sebastian | 11 Jun 2013 4:19 p.m. PST |
Does anybody knows an uniformology book that covers the "native armies" (the units that were part of the states armies but werent part of the contingent those sent to the Reichsarme) of the german states, like the Prince-diocese of Würzburg or Prince-Bishopric of Münster, during the seven years war? From a previous question of mine, I was told that "Bavaria Saxony & the Palatinate Supplement: Uniforms & Falgs in the Seven Years War" by Pengel&Hurt has information on the army of cologne of that era. Are other german states of the reichsarmee covered on this book? |
Generalstoner49 | 11 Jun 2013 4:31 p.m. PST |
Biles has an excellent set of uniform nooks which including the Reichsarmee. |
Cardinal Hawkwood | 11 Jun 2013 5:08 p.m. PST |
Hmm Pengel and Hurt..possibly the most confusing compilation of information in the Spiral Arm. What happened to direction to link |
Frederick | 11 Jun 2013 5:57 p.m. PST |
Digby Smith's Army of the Seven Years War has a reasonable section on the Reichsarmee – any particular Kreis you are interested in? |
Cardinal Hawkwood | 11 Jun 2013 9:25 p.m. PST |
Rogge, Christian: The French & Allied Armies in Germany during the Seven Years War, Frankfurt, 2006 was listed as a reference on Kronoskaf. Any body have more details?? The Intraweb doesn't seem to know much about it. |
IR1Lothringen | 12 Jun 2013 3:27 a.m. PST |
"Armies and Uniforms of the Seven Years Wars – Volume 2 The Coalition Forces: France, The Reichsarmee & Saxony" by James Woods. Published by Partizan Press ISBN:978-1-85818-554-5 available from calivarbooks.com IR1 |
CyberMonk | 12 Jun 2013 4:16 a.m. PST |
Christian Rogge's booklet listed as reference by Kronoskaf are available in the file section of the SYW Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syw/). Look for the "French & Allies 7YW OOB's" folder. Kronoskaf also have a section dedicated to the Reichsarmee at link Richard Couture Kronoskaf Richard Couture Kronoskaf |
Camcleod | 12 Jun 2013 7:47 a.m. PST |
Here is a book of plates fom Gallica on the Reichs-Armee link |
Altefritz | 12 Jun 2013 1:08 p.m. PST |
It seems to me that the original question was not about Reichsarmee, but rather on the permanent german princes forces besides the Reichsarmee contingent. As far as I know, apart some Knotel tables, there are not comprehensive book/papers on such an interesting and rather obscure topic. Fabrizio |
Don Sebastian | 12 Jun 2013 9:42 p.m. PST |
Yeah, Altefritz is right, my interest is on the permanent german princes forces besides the Reichsarmee contingent. So I'm guessing I'll have to check knotell plates
Really, isn't there anything on the "On Military Matters" books? I thought that, since the pengel&hurt had some info on the household troops of cologne, it might have some on the armies of wuzrburg or mainz
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Franconicus | 22 Jun 2013 4:16 a.m. PST |
That's rather a tall order. Most of the smaller Reichsstände had no special „private" army. There was only the Reichsarmee-contingent, in peace-time with 50 % of it's strength (if one kept to the Reichs-law) and in most cases presumably in Kreis-uniform. Perhaps a few guards, hussars, Trabanten etc. You have to bear in mind the expense. In peace-time, the military was more or less a police-force. Real bataillons or regiments kept by „Armierte" Stände on a more or less permanent basis one might find in Tessin, thus obtaining a first overview – difficult enough. I'll try the Franconian (what else
) Stände, mid 18. century: Bamberg: from 1757 see Würzburg; c. 1758 additional companies of infantry, 2 in Bamberg, 1 in Kronach, 1 Forchheim (the latter two were Bamberg fortresses). Würzburg (the franconian Stand covered best in literature: see Helmes, Hagen): - pre 1756: IR Drachsdorff, white, blue facings; IR Hutten, white-red, IR Kolb, white-green - 1756 Drachsdorff made II. Bat Rot-Würzburg, Hutten I. Bat.; Kolb I. Bat Blau-Würzburg 1756-61 Rot- and Blau-Würzburg, 1761 remains made Regiment Würzburg (red facings) – 1763 - 1763 IR Würzburg split again: Regiments Moser, Stetten, Berlepsch, former white-red etc. uniforms „austrian" style. - DR Wolfskeel, uniform red, black (mid 18. cent. perhaps red) facings (according to the Hofkriegsrat in 1782). - Leibgarde zu Pferd, uniform ? - Husarenfeldgarde: presumably green, yellow lace etc., red trousers, black cap. Perhaps already red hussar-style cuffs. - Some artillery, uniform like the franconian one (the Würzburg uniform was in fact the example for the franconian one in 1748 – mind the blue breeches). Eichstätt: There were at least some hussars, uniform? Brandenburg-Ansbach: - IR Streithorst (3-4 companies), 1762 Jaxtheim – uniform: Becher (blue-red) (see the gallica website mentioned) - Hussar-corps 4 companies, 1757 1 company. Uniform 1769: Knötel XVII/17 - Leibgarde (= Reichsarmee-contingent); peace-time uniform 1769: Knötel XVII/16 Brandenburg-Bayreuth: - 2 Infantry regiments/bataillons, many changes of names; uniform of at least one of them (1742) blue-paille (no further details known) - Garde zu Pferd - Husaren-Corps Hohenlohe-Langenburg: The peacetime contingent of 2 (two!) dragoons made hussars (yellow and light blue uniform) Some Haiducken. Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst: 1763 peacetime-dragoons: 7 hussars: red uniform, blue lace etc. Löwenstein-Wertheim: Late 18th cent. a Grenadiergarde in a rather nice light-blue and white uniform. Nürnberg - 1 company of „Stadt-Miliz" (=regular infantry), disbanded in 1763. Uniform? - c. 30 „Einspänniger", being some sort of guard made up by semi-invalids from the cavalry contingent. Leather „collett" with red lace, red cuffs, white buttons. The red-black cuirassier-like Einspänniger depicted by Knötel is a bit strange. All others: nothing known (at least I don't). |
Musketier | 27 Jun 2013 9:04 a.m. PST |
Don Sebastian, some of the contingents you seek were depicted on cigarette cards of the 1930s. They are available online at link under "Deutsche Uniformen" by Knötel jr. and Lezius (fourth from the top) No first-hand source by a long shot, but perhaps good enough in the absence of one? Camcleod,
great source, many thanks for linking it! |
Don Sebastian | 07 Jul 2013 7:58 p.m. PST |
Thank you all! Franconicus, your information was amazing! Do you have any sources for the other circles? Also, there is no way of knowing if those uniforms had lapels or not, is there? Also, does anyone knows anything about the uniforms of the troops of the Prince-Bishopric of Münster? They seem to have had a not so small army
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Musketier | 08 Jul 2013 8:37 a.m. PST |
The military heyday of Münster was during the second half of the 17th C., under Prince-Bishops like Christoph Bernhard von Galen ("Bomber Bernard", 1650-78) or Friedrich Christian von Plettenberg (1688-1706). From 1719 to 1761, the bishopric was united with the Archdiocese of Cologne, as well as sundry other Westphalian dioceses, under Clemens August from the House of Bavaria, a.k.a. "Lord of the five sees". He was more interested in building palaces than raising regiments, so the Münster forces may have fallen below their earlier establishment of 3,000 foot and about 700 horse. I seem to recall reading that some of it was used to meet Cologne's obligation to the Reichsarmee. The infantry of Cologne, Münster and Paderborn all looked more "Prussian" than "Catholic", in dark blue faced red mostly. |
Musketier | 08 Jul 2013 8:47 a.m. PST |
On the Franconian troops, No. 17 in the Gallica series is of a Bayreuth Grenadier in his original uniform (there was understandable reluctance of the Brandenburg Houses to send troops against their cousin from Potsdam, let alone shell out for new uniforms on the occasion). Figure no. 38 in the Gallica series linked by Camcleod is a man from the "Blue Würzburg" Regiment. Both have lapels. |
Musketier | 08 Jul 2013 8:51 a.m. PST |
Franconicus, I stand in awe at the depth of your knowledge, and was merely connecting some of the dots above. You wouldn't happen to be the chap who published a book in German about the Franconian district troops? |
Franconicus | 08 Jul 2013 11:16 a.m. PST |
Don Sebastian: I'd say around 1750: lapels. In 1730, the Franconian Circle ordered lapels for the contingents (see the Gudenus-Manuscript). And as in peace-time e.g. the Würzburg contingents were incorporated in the Würzburg regiments: same uniform with lapels. Perhaps in another life I'll be tempted to begin researching another Circle
There are some articles on e.g. Münster published 100 years ago in more or less obscure magazines dealing with more or less local history. I recall dimly having read one about Trier. The Klio Arbeitsgruppe Siebenjähriger Krieg acquired merit in 1979 compiling the printed material, covering the contingents fielded. It was source for Pengel/Hurt. Musketier: Merci, I am. You are right about the gallica pictures (orginal: the famous Becher-Handschrift, Weimar), there is an Ansbach Grenadier in "house" uniform. Ansbach was less the problem, Bayreuth was notoriously reluctant, sending in it's contingent after (!) Roßbach etc. To whom it may concern: Löwenstein-Wertheim Grenadiergarde (existing as early as 1730s), uniform as of 1793: Cap: fur, silver shield with the Löwenstein arms Coat: light-blue, white cuffs, lapels, lining (in 1803 red lining), brass buttons breeches: white gaiters: black belts: lacquered (in notoriously bad quality) white, Löwenstein arms on the buckle (Koppelschloß, engl.?) cartridge pouch: brass, silver-plated shield, Löwenstein arms; in 1803 a grenade; belt with silver-plated Luntenberger (engl.?) greatcoat (in 1803): light blue forage cap: light blue, white flaps to cover the ears Source: Wertheim archives |
Don Sebastian | 08 Jul 2013 10:54 p.m. PST |
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Franconicus | 02 Sep 2013 10:03 a.m. PST |
Württemberg units in 1748, on parade at the marriage of Carl von Württemberg: Horse Guard: yellow coats with black velvet facings and silver bows ("Schleifen"), scarlet waistcoats with silver embroidery. Cartridge-pouches and bandoliers black velvet with silver lace. Officers red and black coats, paille waistcoats. Hats with silver embroidery and white feather. Sash gold and black silk. All horses black. Commander FML von Laupsky, 3 staff officers, 2 captains, 3 Lieutenants, Cornet, Standartenjunker, 4 trumpeters, 1 kettle-drummer, 92 rank and file. Drums silver; gold, silver and yellow bandoliers; the drummer a moor. Standard: A cloud with an arm holding a scimitar, "Treu und tapfer" // the princely arms with instrumets of war; rich gold & silver embroidery. Guard regiment (foot): blue, red facings, paille waistcoats, silver aiguilette. Regiment Prince Louis: blue, red facings, white waistcoats. |
Don Sebastian | 08 Dec 2014 6:06 p.m. PST |
Guys, does anyone knows if the following states had any native units raised during the XVIII Century? -Speyer -Worms -Osnabrück -Konstanz/ Constance -Hildesheim -Regensbourg -Strasbourg Any infotmation is welcome. |
Musketier | 12 Dec 2014 9:53 a.m. PST |
To start at the bottom, the Free City of Strassburg was annexed by France in 1681, becoming Strasbourg and dropping off the Reichsarmee roster. They did keep their ceremonial citizen guard companies, based on the guild system, but I suppose that is not what you were asking about. The Prince-Bishop of Strassburg had put himself under French suzerainty even earlier, so would not contribute to the Reichsarmee anymore either. For the rest of your list, assuming you mean the repective bishoprics, Osnabrück and Hildesheim came under the Cologne Archbishop refered to above, who seems to have used his various contingents interchangeably. The other bishops to the best of my knowledge did not maintain any armed forces worth mentioning. They might have had some palace guards (possibly in "Swiss" attire) but by the 18th C. would likely have been fulfilling their Reichsarmee obligations through monetary contributions rather than by sending fifteen and a half soldiers. A 1740s take on the Reichsmatrikel can be found here link - I'd call it a mine of information, except it's more of a warren… |
Don Sebastian | 15 Dec 2014 12:51 p.m. PST |
Thank you very much, Musketier! The link is somewhat confusing, but very interesting. And do you know more about the Osnabrück and Hildesheim contigents' organization? All the best, and again, thank you! |
Musketier | 18 Dec 2014 10:36 a.m. PST |
Sorry Don, can't oblige; much of the above is educated guesswork already. The problem is that you've chosen a really esoteric sideline here: Documents on each statelet's troops (what you call "native" forces) may or may not survive in local archives, but since they never went to war as such, there is simply no overall study of them. The only point of considering them all together is in their Reichsarmee incarnation – which for your purposes you deliberately exclude… Still, good luck with your project! |
Don Sebastian | 18 Dec 2014 5:19 p.m. PST |
It's ok, musketeer! Thank you very much for your help! (: |
crogge1757 | 19 Dec 2014 10:38 a.m. PST |
I can't think any existing book or source that would cover all forces maintained by the 300+ principalities including uniform specifications. You are asking too much. Hildesheim was the property of the prince-bishop of Cologne. You can account for a wretched bataillon of burgher milita at best. Just by incident I passed on some details to the forces kept under arms by the duces of Saxe-Gotha/Altenbourg. The chronical for the year of 1757 records the French occupation under Soubise. Since Saxe-Gotha contributed a bataillon to the Hannoverian army, the Austro-French representatives took Saxe Gotha a sort of enemy and ordered all forces to be disarmed 1 battalion Land militia 1 Battalion Burgher militia a unit of hussars (unknown strength) also dragoons (dito) and the ducs Guards (I believe his garde-du-corps) a companie of horse |
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