peterx | 26 May 2013 8:26 a.m. PST |
At Benouville, France, in the early morning (2-3 am), the German sent a small force of 3 tanks/armored cars into Benouville to see what was happening. "Wagger" Thompson of the paragliders brigade shot a PIAT at the "thing" in the dark. It brewed up and the ammo exploded and the other vehicles withdrew. What were the vehicles? In "Pegasus Bridge", the author said they were Mark IVs. I don't know where that "fact" came from. one of the Paras said it was a blown up armored personnel carrier. Another said it was French made German tanks. What is your opinion out in TMP-land? We were playing the scenario and want to try to be accurate. Also, were there infantry? |
VonBlucher | 26 May 2013 9:33 a.m. PST |
I always thought it was a MKIV from 21st Panzer. |
Ross Mcpharter | 26 May 2013 9:53 a.m. PST |
Much confusion has reigned over the years but it appears to have been a Marder I on a Lorraine chassis. I think it was nailed by Jentz and Doyle in their Panzer Tract series on the Marder vehicles, probably belonging to one of the infantry divisions 716th? I'm away from home so can't give you more exact references. |
Jemima Fawr | 26 May 2013 10:45 a.m. PST |
As Ross says: They were absolutey, definitely, Marder 1s from 1. Kompanie, Panzerjaeger-Abteilung 716, which were based at Bieville. They were virtually the only AFVs on the western side of the Orne. |
Sundance | 26 May 2013 12:00 p.m. PST |
Yes, some funky half-breed vehicles were involved in the fight at Benouville. |
badwargamer | 26 May 2013 12:05 p.m. PST |
|
Jemima Fawr | 26 May 2013 12:27 p.m. PST |
That is Lorraine Marder 1s. The Hotchkiss Marder 1s (plus 105mm variants) of StuG-Abteilung 200 were also sent in that direction, but were halted and withdrawn to the eastern side of the Orne before getting involved at Pegasus Bridge. |
peterx | 26 May 2013 7:43 p.m. PST |
Thanks folks! That is clearer about the "thing" Wagger shot at in the middle of the night. |
Toshach | 26 May 2013 9:56 p.m. PST |
According to Lt. Fox, "It wasn't really a tank either. It was sort of a halftrack," refrring to the second "tank" in line. ("Pegasus and Orne Bridges," Neil Barber) BTW, I believe the shooter's name was Wagger "Thornton." |
Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2013 3:30 a.m. PST |
Presumably because it (i.e. a Marder 1) was open-topped. Aside from a single battery of SP artillery, 1./PzJagAbt 716 was the division's only mechanised unit and being based at Bieville, it was therefore ideally placed to mount a reconnaissance against the confused reports of parachute landings at Benouville, which was only a couple of miles away. HQ Grenadier-Regiment 736, at WN 16 ('Strongpoint Hillman') ordered the unit to mount a reconnaissance at once, in concert with some pioneers from Pionier-Bataillon 716. This 'reconnaissance' quickly met opposition at Benouville (sometime between 0100hrs and 0200hrs) and a hasty attack was mounted with the pioneers and a single platoon of Marders. This was beaten off with the loss of one Marder, which exploded violently and illuminated the whole scene. The attackers withdrew and waited for reinforcements and dawn – the reinforcements appeared in the form of 8. Kompanie, Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 192 (a half-tracked heavy weapons company from 21. Panzer-Division), plus an ad hoc rifle company created from elements of HQ Grenadier-Regiment 736 at WN 16. |
Fingerspitzengefuhl | 27 May 2013 10:19 a.m. PST |
I assumed it was a Gesch lgkw Somua. PaK 40 on Somua MCG S 307 (f) half-track link |
Supercilius Maximus | 27 May 2013 11:12 a.m. PST |
So not a weather balloon then
? |
Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2013 1:56 p.m. PST |
Fingers, No, three of those turned up later with the counter-attack by 8./192 mentioned above. Lt Hans Hoeller, commander of that very platoon, detailed his actions and it is quite clear that they did not become engaged until dawn, whereas the Marder was brewed up in complete darkness. In case anyone's wondering, the Marder I (Lorraine chassis) looks like this and could be mistaken for a halftrack at first glance (especially in darkness – doubly so if half-remembered after 60-odd years):
Hoeller's platoon had 3x 7.5cm PaK 40 (Sf) auf mSPW S307(f) and none were lost during 6th June. The company also contained a Mortar Platoon, with 3x 8cm Reihenwerfer (Sf) auf mSPW S307(f) and a Flak Platoon, with 3x 2cm FlaK 38 (Sf) auf leSPW U304(f).
SM, Strangely not. Amazing, because I'm sure the Germans had them in Normandy. ;) |
peterx | 27 May 2013 3:42 p.m. PST |
My mistake, Toshach. Of course, it was "Wagger" Thornton. Thanks again all! |
uglyfatbloke | 27 May 2013 4:24 p.m. PST |
RMD – you are an absolute fount of useful material
have you thought about writing a Ph.D. thesis on the application of AFVs in WW2? Peterx
.Did you find adequate Orbats and schedules for your game? Sounds like a good project for us to do in 28mm. |
peterx | 27 May 2013 8:08 p.m. PST |
We will run our game in 20mm and use Iron Ivan Disposable Heroes rules. We may run a smaller game with a couple of Para squads in the Benouville village crossroads (with a PIAT team) for the Brits, and the three Marders and a couple Pioneer Wehrmacht squads following the tanks. The Brits will be hidden with numbered chips in the houses, hedges and walls of Benouville. The German armor will proceed at lower speeds into the village "T-intersection". The Brits will be spotted in the village if the unit fires. Otherwise, the German units will have to search for the hidden Brits. We may run it at Fall-In if it proves to be a fun and well-balanced game. We'll add more Para reinforcements as we test the game, and perhaps more Pioneers. Thanks for asking, uglyfatbloke! |
Jemima Fawr | 28 May 2013 4:02 a.m. PST |
Ugly, That sounds too much like actual work to me. Peterx, Sounds good. The Marders and some of the pioneers came from the west or southern road. The majority of the pioneers seem to have come from the north (Le Port). Don't forget that there were still elements of Ost-Bataillon 642 hanging around Benouville, as they'd been responsible for the bridge guard force (though the majority of the battalion, with its HQ in the Mairie at Amfreville, was pinned down by the parachute landings to the east). There must also have been other German infantry units involved in the counter-attacks, as 7 Para in Benouville was under extreme pressure and suffered heavy casualties. These were probably ad hoc infantry units created in extremis from rear-echelon, HQ and artillery units south of Sword Beach. We know about the unit formed by HQ Grenadier-Regiment 736, but there were undoubtedly other, similar units that went unrecorded. It also seems that 8./192 brought a sizeable infantry component with it, though 21. Panzer-Division didn't record any other units being engaged from Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 192. These were probably men scraped up from various units in Caen. |
Jemima Fawr | 28 May 2013 5:08 a.m. PST |
Peterx, In terms of British orbats – remember that only 1 Platoon (Lt Den Brotheridge), 2 Platoon (Lt David Wood) & 3 Platoon (Lt Sandy Smith) were initially with Howard at the Canal Bridge. 4 Platoon (Lt Tony Hooper, with the Coy 2IC, Capt Brian Priday) was missing, having landed miles away, mistaking the River Dives for the Orne. That left 5 Platoon (Lt Dennis Fox) & 6 Platoon (Lt HJ 'Todd' Sweeney) at the River Bridge. Fox's 5 Platoon was brought to the Canal Bridge after its capture and was sent forward to form an outpost line at Benouville cross-roads. This means that 1, 2, 3 & 5 Platoons were at the Canal Bridge when the first German counter-attacks came in. Fox's 5 Platoon was quickly forced back to the bridge by the initial armoured attack. Thornton was initially with 6 Platoon at the River Bridge, but was called up with the solitary working PIAT, when the armour appeared. Sweeney's 6 Platoon was brought from the River Bridge to the Canal Bridge once the leading elements of 7 Para arrived. 7 Para was sorely understrength when it first arrived, but stragglers kept trickling in. Each company was probably only the strength of a platoon. 'A' Company took over Benouville, while 'B' & 'C' Companies took over Le Port. However, the daylight counter-attacks eventually forced the entire battalion to fall back to the immediate area around the end of the bridge. |
peterx | 28 May 2013 11:05 a.m. PST |
Hey R Mark, Thanks for all the precise information! It's very helpful, and it gives us enough info to go in several directions with our games related to Benouville/Pegasus Bridge scenarios. Take care! |
Jemima Fawr | 28 May 2013 11:12 a.m. PST |
No worries. As I said, it's impossible to be precise as to how many Germans were present (or indeed British Paras), so I'd be inclined to bring others on as random reinforcements. |
peterx | 29 May 2013 8:04 a.m. PST |
That was our thought too. Random reinforcements on a roll of the die. |
Jemima Fawr | 29 May 2013 12:01 p.m. PST |
Sorry, I should have said that the initial numbers for 7 Para are known (I'll dig them out later), but we don't know how many straggled in later, or when they arrived (an officer had been left at the initial RV in order to direct stragglers to the bridges). Similarly, we have a good idea that there were two companies of pioneers committed, plus the ad hoc company from Hillman, the Marders and 8./192, but we don't know what other ad hoc units might have been committed. I'd therefore go with the known units, but add additional stragglers sections/platoons/heavy weapons on a random basis. |
Jemima Fawr | 29 May 2013 5:11 p.m. PST |
By the way, there was an earlier thread on this here: TMP link It also includes a link to an even earlier thread on the same subject. |
1815Guy | 30 May 2013 8:42 a.m. PST |
Im always amazed at the level of knowledge on this forum, and the selfless way that folks put time and effort in to share their knowledge for us lesser knowledgable mortals. Thanks to all here. |
zoneofcontrol | 30 May 2013 2:55 p.m. PST |
Here is a scenario for Pegasus & Horsa Bridges: PDF link Here is a second scenario just for the Pegasus Bridge: link Both will give you starting forces and a randomized reinforcement schedule. Just check them against the info in the above posts to be sure you are using accurate forces. I remember the one uses the patrol boat for some extra fun. |
Jemima Fawr | 31 May 2013 12:08 p.m. PST |
Correction to the above posts: The first attack by 8./192 and friends occurred in the pre-dawn twilight, at around 0300hrs (British Summer Time, which if memory serves, was 0500hrs German time). The difference in time probably explains why I thought they launched their attack after dawn. One of the ad-hoc units involved was a group from Festungs-Artillerie-Abteilung 989; a coastal artillery unit based at the Riva-Bella Strongpoint in Ouistreham. This unit attacked from the north at about the same time as 8./192's attack from the south. I've renewed my acquaintance with Ambrose and sadly, his description of German forces is utter codswallop. He describes KGr Rauch (Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 192) deploying the whole II. Bn against Pegasus Bridge, which is completely untrue. He also describes the force as having Pz IVs, which again is untrue – all the Pz IVs were down at Falaise with KGr Oppeln (Panzer-Regiment 22), apart from a single company with KGr Luck (Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 125), east of the Orne. He compounds this by saying that the Germans lost 13 of the 17 PzIVs deployed – this is sheer fantasy. Ignore every single thing that Ambrose writes on the German side of the battle. As promised, I've dug out some more info on 7 Para: The initial party from 7 Para, under Major Nigel Taylor, comprised about 100 men and arrived shortly after the first German counter-attack (when the Marder was brewed up). Lt Col Geoffrey Pine-Coffin turned up soon afterwards with another 100 or so, giving him roughly 200 men, organised into three very weak companies. However, 7 Para completely lacked signals equipment, 3-inch Mortars and Vickers MMGs. The heaviest weapons were 2-inch Mortars, PIATs and Brens. Along with D Coy/2 Ox & Bucks, this gives the British about 350 men with which to defend the bridgehead, which is quite a lot when lined up opposite the known German opposition. However, the British defenders suffered badly in the battle and came very close to losing the bridge. I would therefore suggest that there must have been a lot more in the way of ad hoc German infantry units, so don't be afraid to keep shovelling them onto the table! Artillery and 'moaning minnies', as well as patrol boats ('Vorpostenbooten' – converted trawlers, bristling with flak guns) coming from both Ouistreham and Caen, all caused problems for the defenders once dawn came. |
Jemima Fawr | 31 May 2013 12:21 p.m. PST |
|
PilGrim | 15 Jun 2013 7:52 a.m. PST |
OK here's a question. Why only 1 PIAT? Anyone got the loading for the Horsas? Was there another PIAT on Glider 4? I've even heard it said Thornton only had 1 bomb. This doesnt make sense as PIAT bombs are carried in either 6 round aluminium boxes or 3 round cardboard carriers. VP 212 was hit by a PIAT (from 6 platoon?) So is this another PIAT, the same one, or a borrowed one from 7 Para? |
Jemima Fawr | 15 Jun 2013 9:08 a.m. PST |
I think it was more about what could be found during the panic of seeing the approaching 'tank'. One PIAT was bent during the landing and another couldn't be found (probably in the wreckage of Glider #2). Howard had loaded every glider equally, so that each platoon had the tools to do the job independently of each other (including sappers and a medic on every glider). I would therefore expect there to have been a PIAT and a 2-inch mortar on every glider, though I don't recall ever seeing a loading table. It may have been that the PIAT had been deployed in a defensive position with one bomb 'up the spout' or lying next to the weapon and easily-grabbable. He may not have had time to rummage around in the dark, looking for the ammo case. |
PilGrim | 16 Jun 2013 4:34 a.m. PST |
Thanks Mark – makes more sense. I assume the PIAT being a platoon weapon rather than being the responsibility of a particular individual probably contributed to the confusion. Cheers Ken |
Jemima Fawr | 16 Jun 2013 5:04 a.m. PST |
PIAT allocation is something of a grey area: Unlike 2-inch mortars, which had dedicated crewmen allocated in a platoon's war establishment, PIATs were designated as 'extra weapons' to be held at company or platoon level and then distributed as required. It may therefore be the case that they were left with ammunition and other stores. However, in reality most platoons unofficially designated a rifleman or two to look after the PIAT on a permenent basis. I was talking to one such man of the 12th Devons (another glider-borne battalion of 6th Airlanding Brigade) in Normandy a couple of years back and he was permanently assigned as the platoon PIAT man (his mate was actually killed by the tailfin of a PIAT bomb flying back after detonating against a German tank). I've just remembered that a PIAT was used during No.1 Platoon's initial assault against the bunker at the eastern end of the bridge, immediately after disembarkation from the glider. The single bomb may therefore have been the last one left in the case after the other five had been fired at the bunker? |
PilGrim | 16 Jun 2013 6:42 a.m. PST |
Another thought – those Reihenwerfer (Sf) auf mSPW S307(f). OK that's a lot of bombs in the air at once in theory, but in practice given they must take an age to reload, and given the fact that a reasonably well trained mortar team can get several bombs in the air before the first lands, I wonder how much more effective these were than say a section of standard 8cm mortars? I should add I've been tasked to do a Crossfire scenario for Benouville up to dawn, hence the sudden burst of interest. First try was 6th June but it went badly wrong so I'm trying to tweak it to add balance |
Jemima Fawr | 16 Jun 2013 9:45 a.m. PST |
Like MRLs, you get the initial shock of lots of bombs landing at once, but then a pause as the weapon is reloaded. That said, reloading was simply a case of dropping mortar bombs down the tubes and I would imagine that a crew of 3 men would reload pretty quickly (in a minute or so). |