"A Father & Son updating to 6th: Need some guidance?" Topic

Guys,

Need your help please. All things GW just got too expensive a few years back BUT my son is now 9 years old and is an avid W40K Dawn of War I & II Computer Game player. He is fired up on Black Templars and we are repainting his old Ultra's and Blood Ravens figures to Black Templars.

Bought the 6th Edition Rulebook today and we'll read it (I'll read and he'll drool over the pictures) and I need your guidance for an opposing force to the Black Templars.

We're not "power" players or looking to play at tourneys and clubs but we'd like to have some fun together, maybe fight a campaign for an Imperial Planet. We have a couple of Ork units and a couple of Tyranid units all from boxed starter packs back for probably 3rd or 4th Edition. My daughter has a small Eldar force she has lost interest in. We have a larger Necron force back from 3rd Edition – A Lord, 2 Warrior Squads, 3 Destroyers and a Monolith. Last game with them I can remember was a young friend of my son came over and tooled up the Space marines with all manner of special weapons and abilities and they rolled through the Necrons like they weren't even there. Dont think the Marines took a wound and it was all done in a couple of turns! Not fun at all.

So, we need a fun opposing force for Black Templars that will give them a stand up fight and make my son think about his tactics. We like the fluff for Tau, Necrons, Orks & Eldar. Can any of these be competitive with Black Templars or should we just do a different Marine Chapter?

We'll be needing to buy second hand figures whichever way we go.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Nick

All of those other races you mentioned can give them a 'stand up fight.' If you're playing the opfor then you should ask yourself which army's style and fluff you prefer.

Tau – Easy to kill but possess great firepower and decent mobility. Very shooty army.

Necrons – Good firepower and very resilient. As hard to kill as Space Marines.

Orks – Can't shoot very well but you can mass them to outnumber marines. Deadly to marines when outnumbering them at least 3 to 1 in close combat. Has fast units like bikes and buggies.

Eldar – Easy to kill and rather specialized. Quick 'surgical' strike type of army. Can be deadly if you use them right. Like Tau, don't throw their lives away needlessly.

You can do another loyal space marine army, but I prefer dissimilar opfor combat. Chaos marines would be a good compromise.

Hi Nick,

Having made the "mistake" years ago of making a custom Space Hulk set for my young son (then about the age of yours), I know what you're going through. He quickly became a fan of the 40k background, and I became that expensive hobby-proxy known as the "40k Dad". ;)

However! As much as he and his friends loved the Space Marine lore, they were surprisingly unattached to either the rules or the rest of the official figures. I don't know if this is the case for you (and you just plunked down for the rules anyway), but my crowd seems very happy to use other rules to represent how they think the Space Marines should play, and they aren't as picky about who they fight.

I used FUBAR as an introductory set, which worked very well and really got them thinking about troop quality and maneuver tactics instead of Gunz 'n' Powerz! We then moved on briefly to FAD to try more options, but I think Gruntz will be the one that really takes. It easily recreates the 40k tropes on the tabletop, looks like a well-designed and straightforward rule set, and has a nifty point value and unit generator app. The selling point on all of these for the kids was 1) freedom to represent their beloved Space Marines as the super soldiers they read about, and 2) no buy-in to official rules and lists, so they could run things as they saw fit. A much more creative experience for them.

All that aside, the best solution for DESM (Doomed Enemies of the Space Marines) that I've found are the Mantic Orx. They have good variety and a great price, so you can actually field an Orc Horde with various weapon types (especially if you have extra bitz laying around) without breaking the bank. The great thing about the Orcs is that they can easily incorporate other troops types (I call them "enslaved races") or act as mercenaries for other forces.

Although I don't know the 40k rules well at all, I'm sure the other races can be balanced against them … but as you already have found out the big challenge with the kids is that they want all the big guns and they want all their figures on the table every game. That's a hurdle that you can get through, with time and patience, and showing how smaller games with more balanced forces can be fun and even more heroic. I frankly used scenarios and ideas from my years of Colonial gaming to field the Space Marines as Imperials embattled by less quality but sneaky and dangerous foes.

One word of warning – I tried the SM vs SM route, and it always degenerated into a tedious grind of super-same vs super-same. Asymetrical games highlight what they like about the SM's and make for more creative options.

Hope that helps – good luck and have fun!

Cheers,

Christopher

link

Buy the ganesha swatters rulebook and forget all the gw rules….

Swatters sounds like a really fun game, but I'm not sure it has enough "crunch" to depict all the details that the young'uns want to see in their Space Marines.

link

This was the most challenging aspect for me – the kids wanted to see all the cool gear and powers that they *know* make SM's cool, whether they pick it up from the game fluff, the books, or the computer games. Ironically, the 40k rules don't do a particularly good job of this … and if you can find a balance that makes them happy with how the SM's feel on the table combined with interesting game choices, then they can go on from there.

Hi Nick,

In the similar boat with my son. For skirmishes of about five figures a side or mini-adventres, we have used Ratrap Productions Fantastic Worlds. He and his friends love those games when we play them as the can be finetuned to make the Hero as close to the video games and books.

For the smaller battles we have used Ganesha's Fear and Faith, so I imagine Swatters would be good. I have not yet played it.

As for the enemies, I'd go with whichever you like the look and will like to paint. At this point I have small forces from all you mentioned. My buddy feels 6th Ed. small games around 500 points are more fun and flavorful as long as built in a narrative like the Dark Vengence scenarios.

If you are looking to expand your forces, I'd consider Mantic, Pig Iron, Old Glory and second hand as you mentioned. If you are going to need something exclusive to GW (and new) remember their price rise occurs every June so don't delay. Also there should be some angry folks selling off their entire collections…

Oh, and you could always play old Chaos (from back in Rogue Trader and Space Crusade days). That would be a Chaos Force (demon or marine Leader) who takes control of all the forces you've got (except Eldar) and create a story line. The Eldar could come in as allies (or competitors). Then, you're using the whole force and only need to add a squad of chaos marines and a leader-type.

Have fun with the project.

Mark

I also second the Chaos forces… not just for the drama of "brother against brother", but because they're ridculously easy to convert without paying exorbitant GW costs.

Literally anything you buy from any other dealer can be cannibalized to use as "Chaos mutations" or cultists. Get some cheap Space Marines off ebay or wherever and go to town hacking off heads, hands, limbs, etc and adding whatever you want from wherever you find it. :)

I would use a copy of your 3rd edition army lists. They are fairly close to the newest codex, and you already have them ready to go. That way you can use the newer rules and not have to invest too much!

Im partial to tyranids myself. What kid doesnt like laying waste to big gnarly monsters? They are some fantastic models to boot.

Chuck

Thanks guys, some great suggestions from you all. Had our first game tonight with his Back Templars vs my Necrons. I found the Necrons surprisingly competitive with the 6th Edition rules. Only small forces to start with. We also have some Battlefleet Gothic fleets I painted 13 years ago and we have masses of old Epic Armies already painted so a Planetary Campaign might be in order with 40k as th low level tactical game.

Nick

I know this is redundant, but if you are not playing in the club/FLGS/tournament loop I would heartily suggest changing rule sets: Nothing says you need to use 6th edition, or even GW rules to use all the cool 40K miniatures that you have or can pick up second hand (and you can use other manufacturers too!). As noted above, figure out what 'scale' of battles you want to play and find/create rules that simulate the level of crunch your children want.
Ultimatley it will be more fun, and you won't have to worry about the GW 'arms race',pricing, and planned obsolesence.
Also, as noted, the type of 40K experience/space marines/crunch that you may be after is better modeled by other games (or at least other 40K editions… dare I suggest Rogue Trader, etc…)
Check out NO LIMITS and WarEngine, and other above suggestions. Have fun!