"Spontoons" Topic

Were these used in North America during the FIW.
Mark

They are show in the uniform sketches in Empires Collide/The French & Indian War 1754-63 edited by Ruth Sheppard with introduction by William Flowler, Jr.

Yes, I was considering buying the AW French just so I could get a Spontoon!

I'm naming my firstborn "Spontoon"!

It depends, but at least by the British, probably not. While there are paintings (in a peaceful setting) showing some British officers with them, records show that during campaign they carried fusils instead. While they would not be loading and firing with the men they commanded, they were a lot more useful in combat that a cumbersome pole arm. Fusils were lighter than the average musket carried by enlisted men, and are well documented in the numerous weapons books available on the market.

There is also a record in Knox's journal of an officer carrying a double barrel shotgun during the siege of Quebec, and taking out two opponents after he had been wounded. IIRC one was a brave Indian coming to scalp the wounded officer. The officer promptly took care of him and another assailant. He was then rescued by his men.

In short, during campaign, officers carried whatever they liked, and most halberds and spontoons were rightly put in storage.

Say it ain't so! :)
Who can resit this figure?

Thanks for the info fellas.i don't think I'll be using them.
Mark

I figure to use one to easily distinguish my unit officer or NCO in M&T

Does anyone here really think officers and NCOs were running through the woods carrying a spontoon or halberd? Anyone? Really? :-)

So, how do you tell your officers from enlisted? Officers and sergeants should have brighter red coats than enlisted men. They would have metallic lace on their hats. They carried swords. Officers wore a sash, maybe a gorget. Officers had aguilettes, sergeants the waist sash.

"Does anyone here really think officers and NCOs were running through the woods carrying a spontoon or halberd? Anyone? Really? :-)"

There's an Olympic event I'd watch!

I wouldn't assume that what officers did was necessarily copied by sergeants – at least not at this time. During the AWI, Hessian officers laid aside their polearms and carried fusils or rifles (Colonel Donop famously "outdrew" and killed an American rifleman during the battle of Long Island). However, there is some evidence that the NCOs did not: in 1778, one sergeant remarks on how he does duty with an ad hoc "light" company in and around NYC whilst still armed with his kurzgewehre.

RNSulentic may be able to provide more detail on that.

British sergeants were ordered at the start of the AWI to lay aside their halberts and arm themselves with fusils (to be supplied by the government). This occurred quite early on under Gage, IIRC, rather than later under Howe, but both had served in the F&IW so quite probably it was very much seen as "the American way".

Lord Howe issued sporks to all his officers. No, really. I want Conquest to produce that figure. British officer, in woods, with spork and can of bully beef.

@zippyfusenet.;

I'm okay with the sporks, but canned meat is an 1830's invention and bully beef WWI. I used to own a spork!

@piper 909;& Historygamer
Probably less running through the woods than you'd imagine. Most travel was by water, and battles required open space.

@Supercilius Maximus;
Of course, serjeants literally carried halberts at this point. Not spontoons as in napoeonic times. Never handled a halbert, but I imagine it's more cumbersome than a spontoon, which I have handled!

Sergeants in N America put away such silly things for use in peace time or back home and carried muskets instead. I've handled both spontoons and halberts and they are both cumbersome and pretty much useless as a weapon.

Just looking at my favorite detachment of 60th – with Forbes – they crossed streams but did not travel by water.

Even Abercromby's or Amherst's Army had to fight in the woods, so again, kind of a useless weapon in such a setting. The British army became pretty adept by 1758 at dropping European trappings to fight in N America, and did again in 1776.

I can't comment on the distribution of sporks, but I could be surprised. :-)

My understanding from my brief research on Spontoons is that there were used to drill – signal and help discipline their own troops (ie stop them recoiling etc) and as a badge of rank rather than as a weapon

Frederick the Great insisted that Prussian officers up to the rank of colonel should carry spitoons at all drills and maneuvers. The Prussian Spritzgewehr model 1772 set the European standard for these deadly instruments for a generation.

I really was just asking the question about using them in North America as I had a feeling that they weren't used over here.
Mark

It is well documented in Knox's Journal that British officers (and NCOs?) drew fusils from the captured French weapons after the siege of Louisbourg in 1758. That would cover both of Amherst's and Wolfe's forces for 1759. There were only four companies of 60th with Forbes, and I doubt they, or the 77th Highlanders were dragging around the bloody things as they slogged over the mountains and forests of western PA. I have no doubt many showed up with spontoons and halberds early on, but found them useless on the battlefields of N America. A musket or fusil were needed for personal protection.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd

Yes, the weapon can be spelled with a "d" or "t".

The Brits were told to get rid of em, the Yanks were told to get them , but what about the French?

Found this for AWI period

Howard recalled that "As the [Continental] line approached [the British], I observed their artillery a short distance in front, and called to Captain Ewing, who was near me, to take it. Captain Anderson… hearing the order, also pushed for the same object, and both being emulous for the prize, kept pace until near the first piece, when Anderson, by placing the end of his espontoon forward into the ground, made a long leap which brought him upon the gun, and gave him the honour of the prize" [see Note 7].

From here
link

Mixing AWI with F&I. I agree, Doodle officers seemed to favor spontoons, or a pole with a bayonet fixed at the end, as documented in Joseph Plumb Martin's diary.

Is it likely they got rid of them in the F&I but brought them back for AWI?
I agree just cos the Yanks had em does not mean the French kept theirs and it looks like the Brits stopped using them
Just curious……

They were a peace time tool of the trade, not very useful, at least in N America during combat operations.

I would liken them to all the wonderful drum calls and drill invented during peacetime and quickly discarded during an actual war. Although I do suspect they might have been carried in European operations during the period.

Yes, agreed although there were some battles with 6000+ regs per side I think the spontoon would have been most useful for spitting beaver with and roasting him over the fire

Didn't the French withdraw them in 1759 already?

Sergeant of the Compagnies franches de la Marine of Acadia and Plaisance, between 1701 and 1713

Sergeant of the Compagnies franches de la Marine of Canada, 1701-1716

Officer of the Compagnies franches de la Marine in New France, circa 1735
So they may have got rid of then later on, I have yet to see the evidence but there is evidence they used them in Canada despite all the trees etc

None of those are period drawings, so they aren't terribly relevant, but they look cool. :-)

Sorry tbought someone suggested they never
made it to Canada?
Question now is, when did they stop using them?

Those pics don't mean they were actually there.What the offical regulations said about uniforms,equipment,weapons doesn't mean that they were followed to the letter in the harsh realities of the North American frontier.It has been documented that the CFdlM wore a combination of military,civilian and indian dress on campaign.
Mark

OK Mark can you give me a more reliable source?
I am new to the era and so far all the online resources I have found seem to be contradicted by these unknown (to me) other sources that are fequently refeered to by my more learned collegues), presumably books?
I would like to read more about the period.

The spontoons supplied with Black Hussar SYW Prussian command are very nicely done, fine detail on a slim staff that fits the hand perfectly.

Truscott Trotter:

You seem to be saying you have evidence they carried them in the field. Can you let us know what that is? Again, the pictures you posted are not period so they prove nothing. I could draw you a picture of a French Marine carrying bazooka, but it doesn't mean they carried them.

:-) Not only that, but the pictures you posted were off by from 40 to 20 years.

The original questions is, were spontoons used in the F&I War?

I guess we could start by trying to define, "used."

Were they issued – probably. Were the carried in garrison – maybe. Were the carried in the field – probably not. I can't say for sure on the French side, but the Brits seemed to have put theirs away and the officers carried fusils while on campaign. I honestly can't imagine a French Marine officer carrying one in a canoe, or in the field, or through the woods on a scouting or raiding party. Can't say for sure about the Metropolitan troops.

Historygamer, I too would not imagine they would be carried on a raiding or skirmishing party.

But then my limited reading seems to indicate such missions were carried out by other troops than the Regulars.

I would imaginine that the regulars used in battles where there were 2-3,000 regs standing in firing lines using European tactics they might have used them?

For skirmishes and raids I would imagine Indians allies, Cour de Bois, and Frenches Marines would be the go.

As you say there is a bit of a difference between the metopolitan troops and those used to fighting further afield
The only use of a spontoon in the field was the one I quoted earlier and that was in a later period the AWI and with the Continentals.

By the same token the only evidence of troops in America actually discrding their spontoons is the Brits not the French…and you know how the French like to annoy the Brits. :)

So lets define 'used' as set piece battle in open ground in Canada involing French regulars sent from Metropolitan France or those Marine companies permanetly stationed in Montreal or Quebec City- the troops I am thinking of modelling.

Yes but the regulars from France were equipped differently in N. America from what I've been told or have read.I'm still looking through my books because some of the stuff I have read were printed years ago so I don't remember exactly what book or where at in the books.That being said new evidence could have been found supporting your claim TT but I haven't seen it.
Mark

There is a site online link devoted to our period of interest.It has an article on British infantry officer weaponry 1768-1786 posted yesterday.Hundreds of articles on this site.
Mark

So it looks like the Brit change over from espontoons to fusils did not START until 1768 – several years after the period I am looking at (1754-1760) and it looked like the changeover started with the Grenadiers and moved on to other troop types later.
It also seems to have been an order for Officers only not NCO's?
So the French pictures may be correct asnd also the American text I quoted above. I would be interested to see any solid evidence to the contrary?

Infantry Officer Weaponry: Regulations, 1768-1775

The weaponry available to the British infantry officer corps was officially regulated by government in the Royal Warrant of 1768. According to the language of the Warrant, the "battalion officers," including the colonel, lieutenant-colonel, and major of the regiment (when they were not mounted) were "to have espontoons." Instead of espontoons, "Fuzils" (or fusils, fusees, fuzees) were officially ordered to be carried by grenadier company officers only, and later, by light infantry company officers and all fusilier officers.
From link

Thanks for the great link Mark

But remember TT that was the "offical"regulations but we don't know unoffically when it started and we will probably never really know.
Mark

Hmmm unlikely to have started before the offical regs. you would get fined for 'losing' your spontonn. Would love to read some first hand accounts of the F&IW if there are any available?

Yes there are some,just about all on the British side but I have one from the French side called "Memoirs of the late war in North America between France and England by Captain Pierre Pouchot of the French Regulars.
Mark

Thanks Mark – it is available used- ust got to get a couple,more to make the postage worth it!

Now to read all these
link

That's a lot of reading!
Mark

Wargaming broadens the mind……

As I said before, the British officers carrying fusils is well documented. Officer's fusils are well documented, and it is also well documented that British officers in the field thumbed their nose at official regulations all the time. It was only while in home service they were subject to official inspections, and colonels could do almost what they wanted with their regiments.

TT, I think you said you are new at this period. I have been studying if for going onto 40 years now, and worked at a period museum. I don't know everything, but I know a little. :-)

The British army had a lot of progressive thinkers that came to North America, from Braddock on. It was an army that worked hard to adapt to its new conditions and particular warfare to be fought there. Spontoons and halberds were put in storage shortly after arriving here.

But, if you still don't believe me, please read, "In a Soldier Like Way: The Material Culture of the British Infantry 1751-1768" by R.R. Gale, pp 115 to 117. Or, I would invite you to read through John Knox's Journal (both volumes), especially about the part where officers not equipped with fusils were issued ones out of the captured stores at Louisbourg. I think it is also Knox that writes about the wounded British officer who fought off two assailants with a double barreled shotgun too.

I am more knowledgeable about the Brit side than French, so you raise good questions on the French side, at least on the metropolitan troops.

For additional reading on British weapons, I would invite you to read any of the outstanding Neumann collection books dealing with period weapons.

OK HG I will take your word for British officers shunning the use of espontoons before the official edict of 1768.
I do not mean to sound argumentative but I am used to peole quoting opinions as facts without any real back up on forums. So I tend to ask for evidence, nothing personal.

The same policy appears to have been in use by Franches de la Marine on the remoter frontier posts also. I have found a picture – I cannot copy but similar to those above and dated 1750 that and this description:

Officer-cadet and sergeant, Compagnies Franches de la Marine, Canada, 1750s. Both of these men are dressed in the regulation-issue uniform usually worn in the settled areas and, possibly, only on parade days in frontier forts. Officer-cadets, most of whom were born in Canada, had the same uniform, arms, and equipment as private soldiers, but with a blue and white aiguillette at the shoulder. Besides the arms training (shown here) and academic training, they could also be detached to an allied Indian nation to learn native languages and culture before obtaining their regular officer's commission in the French colonial troops. Sergeants had gold lace edging on the cuffs and pocket flaps, and carried halberds in the more formal duties in towns, or muskets otherwise. (Watercolor by Eugène Lelièpvre. Collection and photo: National Historic Sites, Parks Canada)
From
Chartrand, René (2012-01-20). Tomahawk and Musket-French and Indian Raids in the Ohio Valley

So when in town they carried them and when out of sight of senior officers left them behind. Makes me even more convinced that under Montcalms eye they did carry them in the field!

PS Found an account of 50 American Militia Cav on the Brits side -I did not know about before as I have been told no Cavalry in this period at all. Now I am finding first hand evidence of samll units (50-200) raised in Americas , so no Regular Cav (so far) and mainly used for scouting etc – but thats fine as I am playing skirmish games at present.

It is well documented that Braddock raised a small troop of provincial horse for his expedition. It was remarked how poorly their sabers were made. While they certainly were there, they played no significant part in the epic battle along the Mon's shores. They seemed to be used as part of the large screening force around his army, and IIRC, marched up front somewhere in the column.

Horse were hard to maintain in N American due to the areas being campaigned in and shortage of fodder. Most horses were used to haul wagons and supplies. IIRC Ben Franklin headed up a group that made the British officers with Braddock a gift of horses for them to ride. But, I digress.

The light horse with Braddock were in no way used in a traditional shock cavalry role, same with the French cavalry at Quebec. That takes a lot of training, and at least in the case of the Provincial horse, there was simply no time for that, and the ground made such tactics impractical.

Having read the passage above, I am not sure how you seemed convinced they carried spontoons "in town." I am not aware of what changes Montcalm made to the kits of his regulars, if any. They did not serve beyond Fort Niagara. The French Colonial Marines fell under the direction of the Naval Department, and more important, the French Governor, not Montcalm. They were largely made of Canadians who, no doubt, had their own ideas of what was and wasn't a practical weapon. The converged Marines that served at Fort Ti and later at Quebec might have carried them, but then again, might not have. If the British officers found it more useful to carry a musket, no doubt the same thought occurred to the French officers, who often set the tone for military tactics and writings at the time. :-)

So, if you want your French regular officers to carry a spontoon, go ahead. No one could really say you are wrong. French Marines, perhaps a bit more doubtful, but when massed – maybe. Redcoats and Provincials, give 'em a gun. :-)

I am not sure how you seemed convinced they carried spontoons "in town."

I guess it was this bit
…carried halberds in the more formal duties in towns, or muskets otherwise.

Thanks for the info on the Brit light Horse

I have found an online source of copies of original manuscripts. unfortunately the ones I really want to read are still in the original French!
link

One I have just found is
MAJOR GENERAL EDWARD BRADDOCK S Oederly Books
FROM FEBRUARY 26 TO JUNE 17, 1755. FROM THE ORIGINALS,
IN THE CONGRESSIONAL LIBRARY.
What immediately follows, is the Orders of his Excellency General Braddock from his arrival in Virginia until the 17th of June

Also found a translated copy of
Memoir upon the late war in North America, between the French and English, 1755-60; followed by observations upon the theatre of actual war, and by new details concerning the manners and customs of the Indians; with topographical maps (Volume 9) – Pouchot, Pierre, 1712-1767

Here is a link to a living history group which shows clothing and equipment of the French Marines in Alabama. link
Mark