"ADnD 1st Edition Game Speed" Topic

I am a little dismayed with the speed at which our group plays. It seems we can never get through more than one encounter in an evening. Sure, the encounters are often interesting but they are just too darned slow.

Case in point: We fought a group of undead. Our beloved cleric dusted 3 out of 7 critters. and we quickly dispatched a 4th leaving only 3 combatants after round 1. Somehow, it still took the rest of the night to dispatch a death knight and two other more powerful undead. Well, technically, 2 of the undead retreated. The death knight was trapped behind a force wall and when it was dispelled, we finished it quickly.

In total, the fight lasted 5-6 melee rounds. Plus 1 more for the killing blow on the knight. Slow I tell you!

Is your group this slow? Is there anything that can be done to increase speed?

The problems seem to be that folks don't think ahead DM included. Sometimes we get a bit of shuffling about while a decision is made. The DM will sometimes be playing on the fly which means encounter stats have to be recorded before the fight can commence. Stuff like that.

Fortunately there is good beer to be drank and the company is wonderful.

These are the sorts of reasons I prefer simple games and games that can be completed in an evening. So what is a fella to do?

John

My group can easily be that slow in 3.5/pathfinder. Partly this is due to option overload, partly due to the complexities of having to look things up, and in great part due to the poor preperation and play habits of the players.

Some solutions that have worked for us;
1) Preparation. Be it spell cards, customized spell books, or using the SRD on a tablet it helps to hyave all of a player's options in one place rather than in several books.

2) Time limits and delay bonuses. When we are trying to be productive (and that is not always) we limit a player to 30 seconds or so to resolve their turn. Players who are not ready are considered to be fighting on the defensive, delaying their action, or something similar.

3) Tag rule – when a player is off topic Tag can be called by the DM to get an action point for the bad guys. Likewise a player can call Tag to get a bonus action point.

4) DM prep and adjustment – the DM should plan ahead but also be willing to adjust the encounter on the fly. Baddies can flee, surrender, or simply be resolved with a handwave.

i have seen that in my game group with 3, 3.5 and following editions. i didnt like that editions, and i really hated the slow game.
the main issue was poor DM discipline, allowing all players to argue about any character action.
at first when they were new to the edition maybe this was needed, that some players gave their advice to novice players about his new options (and it seemed to be lot of options). but soon they became used to this and each and every single action of every character, every turn, was stated after a long group brainstorming.
so i would issue a time limit to the player each turn, and allow only the player to talk about his character actions.

i designed a set of cards regarding general intentions to act in every turn, fr 2ad&d. so each player had a hand of cards stating his general intention (stand, retreat, run away, advance, charge, healing, defensive spell or attack spell).
at the begining of each turn the dm count loudly and fast 1,2,3,4,. the players can talk to each other but those that dont put their card in the middle of the table are surprised/stunned. then the dm unveal the cards (each player has his name in his cards).
then they can tell the dm their specific actions. this was intended to be the end of those high coordinated actions by the group.
unfortunately, i designed them when everybody changed to 3erd edition, which i really disliked.
sorry about my english and my spelling, i am writting wit my cell phone

If everyone is having fun then who cares how slow you are? A group that slow is to cherished, it makes GMing that much easier.

When we hit bogdown in d20 games (modern, D&D 3/3.5, Pathfinder, etc), I stared using initiative cards, and announcing the player who was up, and the player who was on deck.

It worked well enough to make it so that while the active player was orchestrating movement optimization and recalculating their to-hit and damage rolls for the 5th time that session, the next player could get started on their plan.

That won't cure all ills, however, since there are naturally ponderous players, and the fact that there are many monsters who become "more challenging" by the gift of additional hit points.

It may be time to start adding in strange new ways to "win the battle" into your encounters. Maybe the next time they fight undead, they notice that each of the undead is sporting some ichor soaked ribbon that keeps them functioning.

Maybe they fight slimes and realize that the corner of the room they are avoiding is caked in crystalized salt.

Go ahead and give them the means to defeat the monsters by means other than old fashioned beatings. If they're having a good time walloping the molars out of skeletons, they can… If they want to do the clever thing and move on, that's possible too.

In addition to what was mentioned above, we have way too many players. 8 plus a gm. I guess it is a good thing in the grand scheme of things, but it does take long to get through combat.

Matthew

We have the same issue in my family 3.5 game.
Too many weighing of options back and forth.
And my son hates it when he loses his spot in initiative when he takes too long.

But we still have a good time.

How many hours are we talking?… with 8 PCs and a couple dozen foes, an involved combat could take an hour or even two. More than that and I think the issue is with the group, not the rule system (for 1st edition/AD&D… D&D 3.0+ seems much crunchier, more like 'RoleMaster' meets 'Magic: The Gathering'). If so, only your group can diagnose the sluggishness… of course, does everybody feel the same way…? Ultimatley, the DM sets the pace… when I am DMing and a player is taking too long agonizing over his spell-list or combat-tactics, he loses his turn. Of course, as noted, some players and DMs may enjoy slow and ponderous combat (in which case I would heartily recommennd Advanced Squad Leader or StarFleet Battles as alternatives)…:)

n addition to what was mentioned above, we have way too many players. 8 plus a gm.

Interesting point Matthew. We had 7 players last night plus the GM. Lets give 3 minutes per player and 10 minutes for the entire NPC side. That would be a staggering 31 minutes per turn. 6 turns is about 3 hours or the balance of the time we had left before our cleric turned into a pumpkin (had to leave). Maybe it is just group size and i should just get over it. Honestly 1 minute per player should be enough.

We run into the same problem playing 4e with 7 players. Two encounters involving a total of 5 monsters, with a bit of exploring in between, took 3+ hours. Over the past year, this seems to be the normal pace of things.

I've found more than four players slows any edition down. That's the cross to bear with larger parties.

Your DM HAS to prepare better. For our weekly games which usually run from about 7pm till 11pm I sometimes have to do about 2-3 hours of prep a week. Once I started keeping a folder of all the NPCs I ever put into my own writing that cuts the time required down tremendously. Most are already have stats; all I need to do is swap out a weapon, feat, armor, or some equipment.

Plus I keep about 10 treasures for various level pre-made at all times. Its nice to be able to toss something in if say the PCs track something back to its lair or you need to throw something in. Maintaining that list takes minimum time.

Granted this is for 3.5 and Pathfinder but I ran 1'st and 2nd edition games for years and one thing that is constant is the DM must prep. It also helps if your PCs prep to cut down on looking stuff up during the game. A few notes about complex skills or abilites makes a world of difference.

Easy fix is to get a 1 or 3 minute timer.
Someone doesn't know what to do, flip over the timer. If it runs ojt before the player moves he forfeits his turn.
This forces players to think ahead and speeds the game up immensely.
This also helps reflect the fact that a round of combat is 6 seconds of time. You are giving the players way more time than that to decide what to do.

I tend to give folks just a few seconds to decide their actions, otherwise the character hesitates. Most actions shouldn't take that long to resolve.

Outsourcing tracking initiative and such to helpful players can take some of the load off the DM, speeding up the NPC turns.

Players can also work out some small unit tactics that you can repeat in most encounters. Certain folks will always take the front, M-Us/Clerics have various spells that they should always have in mind to cast, etc.

Focus helps. Make sure people are paying attention to the game. A friendly "be ready for your turn" can't hurt.

Hi,
There is a chaos rule of interaction… The optimal layout of a system is 3-5 variables inorder to predict a result.. Beyond this it is chaos…. This means that the breakpoint for players is somewhere between 3-4 players and one GM.
1. Solution: if you have 7 players plus one GM, split them in two group with one GM and 3 players each. Make sure the GM gives the same numbers of exps so thatthe PCs stay compatible in the two groups and so can a player move from one GM to another.

2. Declare the GM weak and replace him with a sportive GM. Play all bla bla talk in realtime and combat in 5-10 sec actions. A player who was not executed ( declared/ calculated and rolled) loses his action.
The gamemaster executes each action of every NPC in 3 sec Intervalls.

This way of gaming is great fun and i did this for more than 30'years… It shows the differance between combat and roleplay talk/ parle.
Can be rough for weak players/ newbies and wiseguys….and kills everyone who is not focused…. Including the GM.

3. Declare the GM great and be gratefull,that you have sutch a nice guy who creates sutch a nice evening for so many people… Leave everything like it is and shorten only th advanture plot…

All solutions are feasable and have many disadvantages..it takes years to build a good group of player and only one evening to disband them….

Greetings and have fun

Basic and First Ed. D&D are all I play. It sometimes can get bogged down when you've got newer players or if you are with a group that chit chats a lot but I've played games where combat was resolved fairly quickly as well.

D&D mechanics can be a bit clunky at times.

spell cards

One of the players uses index cards with his abilities on them. Works pretty well. If only we could get the casters to do that!

2. Declare the GM weak and replace him with a sportive GM.

Not really possible. This game has been going on for 12 years and is the defacto game for our group.. I remember taking a break on 9-11-2001. Nobody had the stomach to play anything dramatic or serious. We ended up playing Settlers of Cataan or Munchkin I think.

Basic and First Ed. D&D are all I play.

If we were limited to just the core books, things would be much smoother too. Another part of the problem is that this is a kitchen sink kind of game. Stuff from UA and OA and Dragon Magazine all spun in.

A death knight? To me, that's the equivalent to a "boss fight"… I would expect such a battle to be a relatively lengthy endeavor, especially if the being has henchmen at his command, which you indicate was the case. So your description of the fight taking 5 or 6 melee rounds doesn't sound unreasonable at all.

But even so, D&D's high hit point mechanics are likely to lead to lengthy fights, especially if the battle revolves around melee weapons rather than spells. It just takes awhile to carve the numbers down one blow at a time!

I have three players (I am the GM). Our combats *can* go slow, but they also smoke past.

IMHO, the 8-14 player games of my youth with AD&D are just not really possible to the same level with the current games.

Now I run very story driven games, and they steer away from combat sometimes. With story driven games, three players is about as many as I want. Also, when our combats do drag out, the combat is often because of the story, and there is a bit of narrative on my part as GM that goes into it, so sometimes the reason our small combats drag is because of me. -)

Oh and to second what someone else said above me, SRD on a tablet is a real game changer for Pathfinder. Amazingly quick to look up any information you want, from virtually any of the books.

Back in the day, it took us a few months every Sat evening to play through The Halls of Tizune Thane module in White Dwarf. I was the permanent DM. It was a blast for us. We never cared about speed. Of course, that's back when the world seemed to move a bit slower and more gracefully than today.

A death knight? To me, that's the equivalent to a "boss fight"

When we fight, typically we fight bosses…or so it would seem. That is a gripe for me. It seems that the lackies never show up.

Our current adventure is inspired by March Madness. We have to run through a trial by ordeal and fight iterations of ourselves from other possible outcomes from the universe. Our last was undead versions of ourselves. Our main caster was some sort of lich I presume. I play a Barbarian. My counterpart was the death knight. Seems like a good idea but each combat, as you can imagine is a boss fight and it is getting a little old. That was the "sweet 16" round.

We have to run through a trial by ordeal and fight iterations of ourselves from other possible outcomes from the universe.

March Madness? Are you sure he's not putting you through the Maze of Many from the Goblins webcomic?

link
goblinscomic.com

When I played Pathfinder a year ago, I found the fights so dull that I asked the GM if we could skip them or at least simplify them down to a few rolls. He declined, as "there wouldn't be any game left".

Two weeks later, there was no game left.

I actually dropped out of our group so that the games might go faster. I just paint or sculpt during the sessions now. We have fun and I help the GM with looking up info as needed.

Wow, fights dull? The GM is doing something wrong then.

But I have noticed that as the rules get revised they tend to lean more towards a miniature game then the role playing games of the 80s.

Does anyone remember "Roll Master?" That had a complex combat system, but it could be deadly.

Is there nitpicking of the rules? Gloss over them and keep the game going. Better to hold up the monster manual than write out each encounter as it happens!

When I first started I was with an experienced group and we could do a large module in 1-2 long nights.

Easy fix is to get a 1 or 3 minute timer.
Someone doesn't know what to do, flip over the timer. If it runs ojt before the player moves he forfeits his turn.

Yep, that's a good solution, works like a charm to keep the game moving along.

I just paint or sculpt during the sessions now.

I used to paint figures during games too. I would play though. I found I could concentrate better while painting. Unfortunately, where we play, the light is not very good. I've actually noticed that about a lot of my friends houses.

I'll suggest a timer to our DM.

Does anyone remember "Roll Master?" That had a complex combat system, but it could be deadly.

My old group used the MERP critical hit and fumble charts in our AD&D game. It made combat pretty deadly. Interesting addition, though.

Best of Dragon V had "Good Hits, Bad Misses": tables for critical hits and fumbles.

I would suggest let all the PC's go at the same time, and then the bad guys.

In OD&D, AD&D, AD&D2 days we used to run 4-8 players with 2 characters each, one DM. My DM came up with quite a few practices to speed play; I used many myself when I would DM:
- All combat uses the same chart. Figure out your modifiers against that chart (same idea as THAC0 in AD&D2, as target numbers in 3E+).
- if the DM isn't satisfied the player knows the rule or spell with exact certainty, the book has to be handed to the DM open to the correct page.
- make an Initiative chart with useful references (AC, level, saving throws). DM rolls results and announces them. If the character's stats change, the player tells the DM he lost his shield or whatever.
- call the character names in initiative order. If the DM decides the player is taking too long, he counts to 10 and the turn is skipped. The player can announce he'll delay until the end of the order but when that comes, same thing.
- roll all your dice together: D20 plus damage plus critical. If you miss ignore the rest. If you hit but don't crit ignore the crit die.
- provide extra sets of dice for the idiots that don't bring their own.
- provide extra pencils for the idiots that don't bring their own. And erasers, overhead projector pens, etc.
- provide pre-generated characters for the idiots that forget theirs, or for the player whose characters all die early.
- if an action is too complicated due to looking up a rule, either the action is skipped, the player has to do something else, or that character goes into limbo and several rounds later we return to him and play out what he did. (DM's choice not player's.)
- use figures, it settles all arguments about who is standing where and behind whom.

Some practices I added when I would GM:
- delegate.
- when a complicated rule is relevant, delegate two players to look it up and teach it to the rest of the group. (E.g. you fell in water, how does drowning work again? you and the guy who is tied up look it up and teach us.)
- to prep for the next encounter, grab two players who are idle at the moment and give them grid paper and tell them to draw a room with parameters you state. Give them figures, let them have fun setting it up. To maintain uncertainty, withhold boss figures, re-arrange placement, have the party enter from an unexpected side, or even change the drawing a little.
- have somebody order the pizza.
- roll a bunch of dice ahead of time, write down the results, cover with post-it. When it's the DM's time to do dice, lift up post it, read result, cross it off, cover again.
- while the players are doing their thing, roll all the monster combat results. (Write it down probably.) At the monster's turn in the order, just announce the results. If a monster was defeated, don't announce his results, forget them or save for its partner next turn.

20+yrs DM & 4 more or less inexperienced players, five characters and one NPC in the party. A typical game night is 4-5hrs.

We cover up to four combat encounters in that session; the game itself is a social event after all, and meant for friends to gather and have fun TOGETHER.

BUT – (Players AND DM) one really has to do your best to keep the storyline and action moving forward and maintain interest and a sense of tension or expectation to get a satisfying game session.

We cover up to four combat encounters in that session; the game itself is a social event after all, and meant for friends to gather and have fun TOGETHER.

Indeed! This would be my expectation with 1st edition. It is what I remembered when playing at college and in high school. Not so much now. Like I said, the fun is there if only because I hang with my friends. Less so because of the game.