"Magister Militum and Distance Selling Regulations" Topic

26th March: I order four tents at £21.60 GBP.
9 April (approx): I inform them I have not had my order, and get the excuse that the weather is too cold to cast resin.
23 April (approx): I inform them I still have no tents, they say they sent them, and that I will now have to wait 28 days for them to claim the goods and postage through the Post Office. This is in direct contravention of the Regulations which state it is the sellers duty to send my goods within 30 days or inform me why not.
7 May: I ask for a refund or the tents at once.
13 May: I again ask for a refund or the tents or I may repeat may have to go to my card issuer.
15 May: He decides not to send me anything, not to give me a refund and await the outcome of my card dispute.
16 May: Again he refuses to give me a refund, and hints that he won't do so as I am obviously claiming the money from my card issuer and also still want the tents or a refund from him.

We are now approaching 56 days since my original order and I am at a total loss as to why Magister Militum have decided against the law of the land to keep my money.

He now seems to be refusing to answer any of my emails and is leaving me no choice but to report his firm and him for unlawfully and willfully keeping money for goods which he has not sent.

George Anderson

If you have filed a grievance with your CC company, you are now at their mercy, primarily. Note that the CC company will follow the law, to the letter, which takes time, as per your CC agreement terms.

Since you have filed a CC grievance, you must follow up with your CC company, as the retailer is being forced to answer to them, as your legal agent in this matter -- you effectively cut yourself out of the picture, by 'hiring' your CC company to legally represent you in this dispute. Best of luck. Cheers!

Thanks for the heads up.

I am surprised. I have always found MM courteous and helpful.

Phil

Thanks for the heads up – I will look elsewhere rather than use a risky trader like MM.

I'm surprised as well…. and I've ordered resin rents from them, oddly.

Thier website says allow 30 days, I know we're spoilt these days but I suspect allowing one week, including the Easter weekend, may have been premature.

I am also surprised as Richard and Zoe have always been very helpful to deal with.

Mike

It does seem odd given what I would consider their good reputation.

never had bad service from them myself, but I have been let down numerous times as a trader by the good old post office.

reason my postage charges are so high – I always use track and traced postage.

(Surprisingly – customers sometimes find the parcels when I can say that the note of signed for delivery shows their signature, but other times it doesn't show any signature – I get the insurance money back from the post office – and I can re send the figures.)

Does seem odd, I've ordered from them at shows with little more than a hand written receipt and the good have always arrived in short order.

Certainly wouldn't have them as a risky trader.

Always had reallygood service from them over many, many years.

Believe me, I think it odd as well and have tried numerous times to have him simply give my money back.

I am at a loss why I am being treated in this manner.

I have the emails to prove I was not disagreeable at any stage.

The supplier has 30 days to deliver.
Once you have cancelled – which is effectively what you did by informing them that the goods had not arrived and you wanted a refund – the supplier should refund 'as soon as possible' which is to be no more than 30 days. You have not waited this period but gone to your CC company so will need to wait for the money from them.

23 April (approx): I inform them I still have no tents, they say they sent them, and that I will now have to wait 28 days for them to claim the goods and postage through the Post Office. This is in direct contravention of the Regulations which state it is the sellers duty to send my goods within 30 days or inform me why not.

Clearly if MM says it has dispatched your order by this date, then it has done so within the stipulated time and is not in contravention of the law. The variable factor is the speed at which the delivery service delivers or loses a package. :-)

7 May: I ask for a refund or the tents at once.

As Swampster says above, a retailer has 30 days to issue a refund once it is requested. A customer can demand an immediate refund, but is not legally entitled to one.

@ Swampster and Fighting 15's – You are both wrong

19.—(1) Unless the parties agree otherwise, the supplier shall perform the contract within a maximum of 30 days beginning with the day after the day the consumer sent his order to the supplier.
(2) Subject to paragraphs (7) and (8), where the supplier is unable to perform the contract because the goods or services ordered are not available, within the period for performance referred to in paragraph (1) or such other period as the parties agree ("the period for performance"), he shall—
(a)inform the consumer; and
(b)reimburse any sum paid by or on behalf of the consumer under or in relation to the contract to the person by whom it was made.

@ Swampster, you have not read my post before leaping to the defence of MM, 42 days had passed before I reasonably asked for the goods or a refund. Almost another week had went by before I said he was leaving me no choice but to go to my card issuer, so 48 days!

@Fighting 15's, MM's problems with the PO are his, not mine as the buyer, see above, I also asked time and again for the goods or my money giving him plenty of opportunities to give me either.

So how about sparing a thought for me before you leap to his defence. I am out 21.60 and have no goods. I am still awaiting the paperwork for the card, a process which I would still prefer not to go down. Am I not entitled to my tents or money back?

MM are the only firm in over 50 years of wargaming I have had a problem with, and as I said I really am at a loss as to why.

So please read the original post properly before jumping down my throat.

Actually I am right given your time frame. Given that you are describing MM as being in legal default on 23 April for an order placed on 26 March, 30 days has not passed (just 27). I read your post most carefully when it came to times and dates.

Again, the fact that you asked for your money time and time again does not actually give you the legal right to have it at once. 30 days from the date of request is the time limit in which to make a refund.

In two areas, therefore, you are actually expecting beyond what the law entitles you to at the time you complain that you are not getting service within the terms of the law.

You are only right within the law to complain about non-delivery after 26 April, not 23 April. You are only right within the law to complain about not getting a refund after 6 June. After those dates, well…

I didn't particularly consider I was jumping down your throat or leaping to the defence of MM. I apologize if it comes out that way. I am just pointing out where in the process you do not have the legal leg to stand on that you claim you do.

The customer has cancelled his order, as is his right, yet:

16 May: Again he refuses to give me a refund,

Refuses, not says it will take a while, just refuses…
Does not sound good.

Either way the customer has no goods and is out of pocket and seems to be being treated as if he has done something wrong by ordering and paying for stuff.
That is how it comes across.

Legal or otherwise, I would not like to be treated like this, would you?

@ Fighting 15's: I am very defensive about this because I seem to have nowhere to turn except here. My dispute should never have reached this stage, it should never have become a dispute, and wouldn't have done if MM had treated me fairly.

Not that I am left with much choice legal or otherwise, as I have still not received the papers, and a complaint to the Office of Fair Trading will proabably mean nothing to the firm. No doubt MM knows all this hence his silence.

We can split hairs about a couple of days, but with it now coming up for 8 weeks that is now irrelevant and the legal line, yours or mine, has been crossed. And we will have to agree to disagree about legality, the Distance Selling Regulations 2000 seem pretty clear to me on my rights and his as buyer and seller.

I post this merely as a notice of how I was treated, I have no doubt many others have been treated fine otherwise MM would not be very popular. I don't expect redress from MM now except through my card issuer, but at the same time I hope people will take note in their dealings with MM.

I am a customer of MM for more than 9 years and have all their Stalingrad and Berlin ruined city models.

I will buy in the future also they complete Vaubaux Fortress range.

The law for protection of long distance trade was created to protect the customer from frauds on Ebay or fake e- commerce ect…
I was in the pre advising group for the European commission for this law and the intention was NOT to hammer on small family business who are manufactures and distributor together and have already heavy red tape and lean processes.

I am very happy to be the proud owner of products from MM and I like them very much. The risks legal claim have for the industry is significant. That evolution is very negative.. Some years ago was it normal to get your stuff only after 3-6 month from a distributors. I have today open orders from Manufactures, from whom I ordered 11 Month ago and open orders from leading company of the industry because they can not fulfill my orders beyond the legal limit.

I think we have to make a difference between complains about huge companies who treat there costumer like milk cows and small family companies who are in the business for their love of the hobby.

Very simple…

Greetings and don't forget to have fun…

You are quite within your rights to buy from MM, but you are missing the point entirely. This is not a popularity competition, I have had money taken, no goods given therefor treated shabbily.

How do you treat people who take your money and give nothing in return.

Your post is utterly pointless to this discussion.

And to be honest, how does a love of the hobby equate to ripping someone off?

Refuses, not says it will take a while, just refuses…
Does not sound good.

No doubt because by then the customer has initiated a chargeback. Once the card company is involved, you wouldn't refund because that way you could end up paying twice.

@ Fighting 15's: I am very defensive about this because I seem to have nowhere to turn except here. My dispute should never have reached this stage, it should never have become a dispute, and wouldn't have done if MM had treated me fairly.

MM appears to be doing what any normal online business would do: it has confirmed that it has dispatched an order according to your statement on the state of affairs on 23 April, and that it will go through the Royal Mail's claims procedure for a lost parcel when the Royal Mail allows it to. It doesn't have to refund you immediately when you asked, and initiating a chargeback before the legal limit for a refund passes might be considered a nuclear response. The question is do you believe MM's statement that it has dispatched your order?

You say you are largely out. It's not unusual in my experience as an online retailer for customers or their family to scoop up Royal Mail's while you were out notifications in the junk mail and throw them out. Sometimes, apparently, postmen don't leave them, at least according to my customers, although tracking information shows an attempt at delivery was made. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that your order is sitting at your local sorting office unbeknown to you. It would be terrible if you resorted to the internet to complain if the business turned out to have acted as it had said, dispatched your order in time, and that communication had failed between you and the delivery service. Just a thought. I'm sure you've exhausted that possibility.

Just to illustrate what can go wrong, I once had a customer who insisted his order had not arrived, in spite of it having been signed for. It turned out to have been accepted by a member of the family who put it on the side in the kitchen, where it stayed for several days: no one told him it had arrived. It was urgent, and had the potential to be a severe hair-loss scenario. :-)

Don't you read my posts, I have not started a chargeback yet and didn't want to in the first place, but despite saying he was forcing me into it he didn't offer to send the tents or refund, he had no grounds to refuse the refund I have not claimed anything yet.

You also miss the point that I did not mention a refund until the 7th May! Way over 30 days or whatever your interpretation of the rules are. And I didn't mention the card until the 13th May!

And no, he is not doing what normal business' do. I have only had one or two occassions where an order has not arrived in 50 years, I would be informed that the order was sent or I was asked to wait a 'week' or so and then it was replaced, the due email/letter of thanks on return. If anyone ever failed to get one of my scenario books I just sent another out, no argument, I was working on the assumption that almost 100% of wargamers are the same as me, honest.

Stop offering excuses for the guy, his attitude toward me as a customer stinks no matter what your interpretation of the rules, and I want people to know it. And no it is not sitting at the local sorting office as I own a Post Office and have more than normal access to mail coming my way.

Are you trying to imply that I have to wait over 28 days for a parcel to turn up, then wait another 30 after asking for a refund? It's laughable that you think asking for a refund is going 'nuclear'.

Going by his own words, he has now claimed the PO and now has my money and the claim money. It would be interesting to see whether he has a Proof of Posting cert, which business' and ebay customers automatically get from my office.

Like others, I'm surprised because I've never had a problem with ordering from MM and I've also met Richard and found him to be a very pleasant chap. Due to the tone of the posts by the other party in this dispute, however, I know who I would prefer to do business with in the future…

I'd like to add some facts to this sad tale. In this case from the DTI's own guidelines to the DSR:

Can a [EU] consumer cancel an order before they receive the goods or where goods are lost in transit?

3.35 Yes. Where the DSRs give consumers rights to cancel, this right is unconditional. If consumers cancel before they have received the goods you must refund the total price of the goods, including any delivery charges. Consumers who have cancelled under the DSRs may refuse to accept delivery of the goods. Refusal in such a
situation cannot be treated as a breach of contract.

3.36 Where goods are lost in transit from you to the consumer you will need to either send new goods or offer the consumer a full refund, including delivery charges. See paragraph 3.20 for more information.

And:

When do I have to refund a consumer's money if they cancel an order?

3.46 As soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case within 30 days at the latest. You must refund the consumer's money even if you have not yet collected the goods or had them returned to you by the consumer. You cannot insist on the goods being received by you before you make a refund. See also paragraph 3.64.

So cancellation is possible at any time prior to delivery, refunds must be made as soon as possible (and no later than 30 days) and the supplier cannot insist on receiving any undelivered goods before issuing a refund.

As a retailer I view my hands to be well and truly tied by these regulations. If this had happened to me I'd would not want to explain my actions to a Trading Standards officer.

Finally, disputes like this highlight why signature on delivery is increasingly common.

--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
vexillia.ltd.uk
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@Cambria5622 I suggest you read my posts again, at every turn I offered MM a solution, I have also been pretty reasonable posting here as well. I have merely took the opportunity to voice my concern over my treatment.

You seem to be suggesting because you have had no problem and have a favourable impression of MM I should simply shrug my shoulders and call it a day.

The fact that a customer does not recieve satisfaction from any firm at all and you do does not automatically infer that they are beyond repproach. I doubt very much if my complaint was against BT or Argos they would as many people rushing to their defence.

Because wargame traders are overwhelmingly decent people, and I know a few, and am one myself, this does not negate my right to bring this particular transaction to public knowledge because it is wrong.

And to impune that I am not a reputable trader and would somehow be less likely to give you satisfaction is frankly, detestable.

@Belis4rius I would not seek to suggest you should not bring problems with a particular transaction to light – that after all is what (in part) the consumer affairs board is for. I do wonder why you consider it appropriate to raise the same issue at the end of multiple threads about MM? Particularly as half of them are not consumer affairs threads!

I had a problem with a delivery from them not long ago, but it did end up being a Postal service issue in the end, and they got back to me straight away. I'm very very surprised they have treated you so badly and you've every right to be dissatisfied….hell they have your money and you've got nothing. This order should be punched out again and dispatched straight away….whatever has happened. I work for myself and in the end it is the most painless solution to the problem by a country mile….everyone is happy and life moves on.

Some thoughts as a lawyer who occasionally has to advise on this stuff:

1) Consumers aren't obliged to wait X number of days before cancelling. You can cancel even before the items could have been physically delivered, if you so wish. The 30 days to deliver is a limit on the retailer, not consumer.

2) The DSRs don't say that refunds should be given within 30 days. They say they should be given 'as soon as possible'. The refund is due as soon as it is physically and technically possible to make it. In this day and age, that's as near as dammit an obligation to make an immediate refund (which shouldn't be overly onerous anyway). The 30 days is to give some leeway for unexpected events (eg being on holiday, illness, technical failure etc) and to give a clear date by which the consumer can forget about having to prove it wss possible to issue the refund. There is no requirement on the consumer to wait 30 days before taking further action, although best practice would be to wait for the 30 days to elapse as it's so much easier that way.

3) The DSR refund process and the chargeback process are separate remedies and retailers can't ignore the former (a legal obligaion) in favour of waiting for the latter (if that's even wise, as presumably there are chargeback fees). Double-recovery shouldnt be an issue given a retailer that has already made a refund would be able to appeal the chargeback.

4) The DSRs aren't rocket science and there is a wealth of good quality, free guidance available online to businesses on how to comply with them. There really is no excuse for retailers not to get it right, however small they are. Ignoring it entirely just gives consumers even more rope with which to hang the retailer.

Belis4rius, I'd assume that MM aren't fully aware of he DSRs so a polite letter pointing out the date you made the refund request, the DSR requirements on refund, and the provisions that Martin from Vexilia pixked out, should do the trick. I'd give them the full 30 days from 7 May before taking further action, but after that pop down to your bank to speak to someone about the chargeback process – should be able to get it sorted there and then, rather than wait for paperwork to arrive.

MM hasn't covered itself in glory but I suspect it's more a lack of awareness of the process than anything else.

@Belis4rius, I did not suggest you are not a reputable trader, but I do strongly imply that I don't like your tone. I also didn't give you any advice to shrug shoulders or any other action for that matter. Furthermore, I never suggested your rights as a consumer are negated by Richard at MM being a 'pleasant chap'. (In fact, if you have presented the facts accurately here, it is clear MM is in the wrong.)

For someone who keeps telling others to re-read his posts, I find your misinterpretation quite ironic. You may wish to re-read my post! ;-)

@ rjabox – you are right, but I had no idea how to post and that was my only way of hitting back. I have since apologised to Bill for my misuse.

@ Delta Bravo – I am afraid he has no excuse, I emailed him a copy of the DSR's :)

@Cambria5622 – You did imply such when you said you know who you would rather deal with, how else could this have been interpreted. My tone is in keeping with a customer who is angry at having money taken from him in return for nothing, and it is pretty tame if you ask me. If you have nothing positive to say about the transaction keep your impressions to yourself as it does not help to get personal.

Thanks to Bill for allowing me to point out the disgraceful treatment meted out to me (note that) by MM.

Thanks also to those who understand and have tried to point out the law on distance selling regulations where it applies to MM's refusal to comply.

I shall now bring down the curtain on this sad affair as I have brought it to the notice of the wider community, whether you agree or not, it will be in the back of your mind next time you pass his stall or think of submitting an order.

So I am now left with my card issuer and the Office of Fair Trading. Adieu.

So I am now left with my card issuer and the Office of Fair Trading. Adieu.

Please take the trouble to update this thread with the final outcome as a service to others.

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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
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I had a phone call 30 mins ago from a firm in the next village. Parcelfarce delivered my package to them seven weeks ago. It should not have gone there as it was clearly marked, they should not have signed for it as it was not for them, and they should have phoned me or Parcelforce on finding out the true addressee.

Magister Militum sent the package when he said he did, I have never disputed that, although I was beginning to wonder, but that is obviously no longer the case and I must apologise for thinking this.

The main gist of my complaint was how he treated me throughout and that still stands. As I and several others have noted he ignored the Distance Selling Regulations, this cannot be denied.

I have not yet claimed through my card and will not be doing so now, if I had then I would have sent the package back as I am one of those many honest wargamers.

So please take note that the package was sent and the disaster that followed sadly could have been avoided.

A sad affair indeed and remember I could quite easily have kept my mouth shut.

Decent of you to make that last post Belis4rius. A pity the firm in the next village didn't respond more quickly to the misdelivery.

Phil

How odd. I wonder why MM didn't check for a POD when you claimed it never arrived?

Good to hear it has been located though.

I've never had a problem with MM, but a friend of mine who had ordered from them on a number of occasions had one order with a couple of packs of figures missing. He contacted MM and was told they never make mistakes and he never received the missing figures( 3 packs 15mm ). He will never buy from them again.

Deleted

….for the love of the hobby!

Interesting …since MM would have been able to check that the parcel was delivered and signed for…

"The main gist of my complaint was how he treated me throughout and that still stands. As I and several others have noted he ignored the Distance Selling Regulations, this cannot be denied."!

Did he? He had evidence of delivery.

Did they call you a fraud? He was sitting on 'evidence' that you were a con artist trying to pull a fast one.

How would you treat someone you had evidence was a scammer?

just to clarify, I am not suggesting you were scamming nor would I suggest that you treatment was deserved.

Considering that something went wrong, It maybe very understandable

Belis4rius, I hope that you will now go through all the other threads into which you've jumped to warn about MM's so-called dodgy practices and explain that they were not in fact keeping your money without reason after all.

Best wishes,
Aaron

Hmm, stifle count gone up by one after that post. I hope not you, Belis4rius!

I thought this was dead, but here goes.

KevanG – Please read the relevant regulations, it doesn't matter about his proof, the whole bleeding point is I did not get the tents. The whole sorry affair would have never taken place had he bothered to check with ParcelForce as he had sent it Express48, which is signed, tracked and, wait for it, guarenteed! He could have made a phonecall, they would have tracked it to the wrong address and I could have went and got it. But he didn't!

Achilles, I already apologised for that and explained why, also I believe Bill already deleted them. And no, I did not stifle you as your comments mean absolutely nothing to me, so why should I. Honestly.

Try these on for size.

TMP link
TMP link

In both of them you claim he has taken and kept your money. I think it's only fair that you explain in those threads that the problem was a misunderstanding, not dodgy dealings on their part.

Of course, it's entirely up to you what impression you want to leave.

Best wishes,
Aaron

Thanks for adding an explanation to those threads, Belis4rius. Very decent of you.

Hopefully MM will now do their best to make sure there are no repeats.

Best wishes,
Aaron

I think, like most of us, we tend to hang on a little longer rather than rush to immediately refund or resend, as these things invariably have a habit of turning up eventually.