"Foundry and Assault Gtroup TAG Aztecs, do they mix?" Topic

Want to flesh out the Foundry Aztec Novices, especially with some slingers, will TAG's Aztecs fit the bill?.Styalistically they look similar, but will they match sizewise. Also interested in the Eureka figures but they look to be far more slender sculpts.

all suggestions appreciated, cheers guys

Eureka minis are really nice but noticably larger than either line you mentioned. They are very well proportioned and nicely detailed. I have a couple of unpainted units of TAG Aztecs and one that is finished. They paint up nicely but( and for me, this is a big BUT!), the shields are very small and the protruding shield rims make it extremely difficult to paint them.
You might look at Outpost Miniatures! I have over 200 and highly recommend them. They have a large variety of nice poses that are sturdy and well designed. The only downside for us "Yanks,"is that they are cast "across the pond" but well worth the added postage.

Many thanks for the heads up, I may well use the TAG figures but add Outpost sheilds and weapnos.

Newbie question, how were the warrior castes organised?, in a similar vein to the Christian warrior orders of te crusades, clearly defined units, perhaps similar coloured suits, mask and sheilds?, or were they fighting as individuals with differenent coloure suis and sheilds in one unit?.

Did they simply fight as individuals with differing castes, eagles, Jaguars intermingled?

Any help or reference pointers really appreciated, cheers

From what I have read most would have an experienced warrior with a group of novices. I mounted mine with one suit warrior and the rest at the most with the padded tunic.
Suit colors would be not be uniform. The exception would be the Eagles and Jaguar warriors. I have both TAG and Foundry in my army. The Eureka were nice sculpts but way too thin. The foundry shields are far superior to the TAG ones.

Thanks rxpjks, so maybe front rank experienced warriors backed up by rear ranks of novices in cotton armour/ loincloth. Ihave enougth Eagle Warriors for a couple of units so single unit colours will help establish them as "elite" umits on the table.

Would sheilds be the same or seperate individual patterns/ colour combinations?

link

Must have

Rudi any idea as to how to get hold of a copy of this, Amazon and internet drawing a blank at the moment.

Thanks though for the heads up.

Newbie question, how were the warrior castes organised?, in a similar vein to the Christian warrior orders of te crusades, clearly defined units, perhaps similar coloured suits, mask and sheilds?, or were they fighting as individuals with differenent coloure suis and sheilds in one unit?.

Meso-American didn't organize themselves according to European styles at all. Aztec units were never made up of similar troops. Nor is it correct to say their combat was individually based. A typical unit was the Tzontli, made of 400 men. The Tzontli was made up of every type of warrior, of all experience levels. You would have high ranking Eagle and Jaguar warriors fighting next to unarmoured Novices who were in their first battle. All the men of a Tzontli came from the same Calpulli, or barrio or neighborhood within Tenochtitlan or other cities within the Triple Alliance.

Suit colors would be not be uniform.

Sorry, yes they were. You mean the types of warriors within a unit were not uniform. Otherwise the Aztecs were extremely careful about what they wore. Uniforms were based on their military rank. Within any rank the outfits were very uniform. This included back banner designs and shield decoration. The Aztecs were extremely fastidious about the rules for clothing. For example, only certain ranks could wear cotton, or certain clothes had to be worn above the knee. Breaking these regulations could result in death. So a cuachique had to wear a Mohawk style haircut, had to wear a yellow battle suit and had to wear a distinctive back banner and shield pattern indicative of his rank.

……..so maybe front rank experienced warriors backed up by rear ranks of novices in cotton armour/ loincloth. Ihave enougth Eagle Warriors for a couple of units so single unit colours will help establish them as "elite" umits on the table.

Generally that's how things started. Cuachiques and Otomitl would form a vanguard, with Eagle and Jaguar warriors in front of the units. Typically, a Tzontli would be led by an Eagle warrior. However, once melee was initiated the front ranks would withdraw to the rear, while other ranks would move to the fore. Prof. Ross Hassig suggests that this rotation of ranks was one of the innovations that made the Aztecs such a formidable force. It wouldn't take long before Novices were fighting next to captive taking young warriors, or Cuachiques, or warrior priests or Jaguar warriors, etc.

The way you want to base your units probably is the most realistic available. Elite units wouldn't have any uniform paint job or outfits. They would simply have a higher quota of elite warriors. Non-Elite units would have a higher percentage of low capture warriors and Novices.

Hope that helps and sorry for being so pedantic.

For some good color prints of the various levels of warriors and warrior priests, cuachiques, otomies and those of higher ranks, together with their uniforms, check out the Codex Mendoza.

Bowman, thanks for going into such detail for me, not pedanticat all but exactly the kind of informed detailed info I was after and very much appreciated. My initial understanding/ perception was that Eagle/ Jaguar Knights would fight in similar caste groups say in the style of Templers and Hospitaller Knights. However am I right to understand that each warrior code was based on number of prisoners taken so that Jaguars and Eagles etc could fight alongside each other, say taking the front rank, then backed up by veteran/ novice warriors.

If I wished to add bow/ slingers, did these fight in seperate units or would they fight amidst the main block?

Thanks for heads up on the Codex Mendoza.

Thanks again for the info

My initial understanding/ perception was that Eagle/ Jaguar Knights would fight in similar caste groups say in the style of Templers and Hospitaller Knights.

Generally that did not happen. A small minority of the chroniclers suggest the idea of a "Palace guard", which was made up of the military orders, that would protect the Huey Tlatoani (Emporer) during campaigns. Others are highly doubtful that this ever happened.

However am I right to understand that each warrior code was based on number of prisoners taken so that Jaguars and Eagles etc could fight alongside each other, say taking the front rank, then backed up by veteran/ novice warriors.

Yes, that is the generally accepted idea. Like most armies, rank was delineated by differences in uniforms. Each rank of normal warriors, and each rank of warrior priests had a name (largely lost to us now) and a specific uniform based according to their rank level. For most parts, the Aztec army was a meritocracy, so that you rose up through the ranks based on martial prowess. This was measured by captive taking. Not only the number of captives was important, but the "quality" or rank of these captives was also considered important.

However, those of noble or royal lineage rose through the ranks quicker and enjoyed many benefits in life. It certainly helped to be part of the aristocracy……… Not much different from today, it seems.

The benefits to this mixed unit style of fighting was obvious. Veteran soldiers would protect the inexperienced Novices. The Novices could learn from the Veterans first hand in combat situations. Since the units were from the same "Calpulli" or barrio, many of the troops were related to each other, through the large extended families. This produced an espirit de corps within each fighting unit.

If I wished to add bow/ slingers, did these fight in seperate units or would they fight amidst the main block?

There is a lot of conjecture about this, as not much is known about how this sort of fighting was done. The reason for this is twofold: These types of warriors were from the Macehualtin or peasant classes. They would have received military training but now were farmers and labourers, and not part of the standing army. The Aztec chroniclers simply wouldn't write much about them. The Conquistadors also wrote nothing about them as they were, almost to a man, totally disinterested in the Aztec way of warfare.

The best guess is that archers and slingers acted as skirmishers that operated in groups that moved back and forth amongst the formed Tzontli. They would also be at the ends of the battle lines to prevent rolling up the flanks. So they would probably not be part of formed battle units.

There really is a lot that is not known about how the Aztecs fought. Certainly, the Conquistadors, who had the best opportunity to record this, showed an almost total disinterest in their enemy. The best records were compiled years later by Franciscan Monks who eventually showed some historical and anthropological interest in the indigenous people.

Hope that helps

As to the original posting: I have TAG, Foundry, Eureka and some Outpost figures (in that order) in my army. While the sculpting style is different for all 4, I mix and match them happily.

As for the shields, the TAG ones are a little small, but also too thick. But neither fact prevented me from using them.

YMMV.