"Let's discuss prices - a living wage for figure painters!" Topic

At those prices, a company of plain old Japanese infantry would cost $30 USD for the figures (I buy plastics off eBay in loose job lots) and $858 USD for the paint job.

Uh, no.

Most of the painters I have dealt with over the years do not declare that income for taxation purposes effectively increasing their hourly rate by that %. So not all are ss lowly paid as claimed.

To give the painters in this thread credit, none of 'em included taxes in their figures… :-)

May be there are two different market?

One for small (1:20) wargames.. with tons of awkwardy (1-3 $ per piece) painted lead on gigantic boards for distant look.

And another for big (1:400) wargames.. with exceptionally painted figures (one figure per cav.regiment) on relatively small boards for close look.

Lots of good stuff here about going rate.

I personally wouldnt farm out 28mm for painting, I'd enjoy it too much doing it myself with the quality of the sculpts these days.

For 15mm, I would probably have the more complicated uniforms sent out for painting. Half of the troops in my various Napoleonic armies are wearing greatcoats, though, which I can knock up myself in no time at all.

For WW2 and the like I cant see why anyone would want to use a painting service. A few quid for a can of spray paint and a bottle of GW inkwash and you are halfway to a satisfactory standard in just a few minutes.

Price? Well every £1.00 GBP spent on figures has to be earned. To earn £1.00 GBP one actually has to earn not only that £1.00 GBP, but also enough to cover the additional deductions from wages: income tax, NI, pension deduction, CSA payments…. whatever. That £1.00 GBP spent is probably £2.00 GBP in gross earnings. So that £10.00 GBP a figure is really £20.00 GBP earnings to achieve. Perhaps +20% VAT. Im not sure what the average wage is in UK, but I think its around £25.00 GBPk a year, or £12.00 GBP an hour. A full days work would get this guy five 28mm foot figures. Which is probably why he wargames in 15mm or 6mm! Is he really going to pay more than about £1.00 GBP or so a piece to have his 15mm painted?

I cant see how figure painting for mass wargames armies is going to be anything other than a nice sideline to a hobby that they enjoy, not a possibility of making a living wage. Top up a pension, a bit of extra income to add in to the wife's wages, the price of a night out earned while sitting at home listening to radio, all great. It will pay for your holidays, or maybe run a second car. But I really cant see a living wage business opp here.

I suspect if you are good, and fast, you could make a decent living at it.

If above average, you need to seek out "whales", like the casinos do, in order to maximize your potential income. I imagine they have plenty of cash to burn on over the top paintjobs, and won't blink an eye at high fees per figure, as long as the end result is impressive work.

I like what Scott Washburn implies.

If he had charged too high of a price, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to work for $1 USD/hour.

Talk about loving what you do!

There is a painter/artist in Spain that charges 28 Euros per 28mm figure and gets it! His painting is superb but that is still a lot of money. Maybe we should ask him how his business is doing.

Well chaps, it's been a great read so I'm glad I started the debate. Consensus would seem to be that it's NOT generally possible to earn a full time 'living' wage from commission painting as the market will not stand it. I like how it's opened up into calculations of income per figure, taxes etc. I'd just like to add my perspective on some of the above before we leave the subject.

Firstly, it's difficult for me to get a handle on how things are in the US economy as I have no idea of average earnings, minimum wage policies or the going rate for painted figures beside what I read above. 1815Guy made some good points in relation to UK earnings.

I'd like to just explain how 'our' minimum wage applies and how it compares with 'average' UK wages. The minimum wage was introduced to stop exploitation of workers by unscrupulous employees, it is UK Law. IN my part of the country (semi rural) that minimum wage (£5.90 or something per hour) would be offered for such things as farm working, seasonal work such as fruit picking, harvesting, plucking turkeys at Christmas etc! most of these jobs are take up by immigrant workers from Eastern Europe, mostly Polish around here, as it represents a far better wage than they could find at home and even allows them to support families at home. I have no issue with that, many others do it seems. However the average Uk worker will not work for minimum wage as it is considered to be very low. The average wage across the UK is as 1815Guy says is around £25,000.00 GBP GBP per year according to Government figures. Minimum wage equates to somewhere around £10,000.00 GBP GBP. To put that in further perspective, to rent a place to live down here would cost around £7,000.00 GBP GBP per year so if you're working for that minimum you dont have much left to actually live on! Food and energy prices are also high as is travel. What I'm saying here is that to aspire to earn minimum wage is really not asking for the Earth :-) I'm curious and interested to know how this compares with the situation in the US?

I'm lucky, I'm not in that position, and I earned above the average for many years before illness stopped me working so my house is largely paid for and overheads are lower. I've been doing some more calculations ("groan" you say!)I'm not too far off that minimum averaging close to £5.00 GBP per hour, a little less where I offer my 'mates discount' for ongoing work. In the light of everything above I'm happy with that, I certainly don't do it full time, I paint for just 4 hours per day, Mon to Fri 9am till 1pm (lunch break – I'm a 'stuck in my ways' structured Englishman!). IN the evenings I paint stuff for myself and in between I run the house, do the cleaning, take care of the pets and kids etc, I'm happy with my lot.

Thanks once again for all of your replies on the subject, heck I'm late for work this morning ….I'd better get painting :-)

Cheers,
Lee.

I'm curious and interested to know how this compares with the situation in the US?

'Bout the same.

Some of the problems are: 1) the potential pool of customers is small; 2) the pool of customers that can pay "a living wage" rate to get figures painted is quite a bit smaller than that. I know what I can and can't afford to get figures painted, and it ain't enough.

I think I would spring for 5 dollars max for 15mm infantry. However, it better be drool worthy.

Cheers Lee, and good luck with your painting. It seems to me you are going forward with exactly the right attitude. Although if someone's on £7,000.00 GBP a year they probably dont have a hobby, they are out doing a second job instead! :)

Which part of the UK are you in btw? You might be able to get some work from some local clubs I visit. Drop me an email if you can so we can discuss it.

When I was laid off in the 90s recession I was able to pay my living costs from a new business venture I started, and I was also doing a higher degree at the time, so I had to make my hobby self-financing. So I wrote a couple of books, painted a few figures here and there for club mates, put an article or two in the wargaming magazines, and I used to pay for my annual visit to the German nationals by buying an army, painting it, using it in the tournament, and selling it at German prices to someone while I was there at the end of the show. It all kept my hobby affordable for me, and didnt take up too much time to make it all pay for itself.

Now this wouldn't have paid a living wage, and I rather think that HAVING to paint every day as a full time thing would soon turn my beloved hobby into a detestable chore. But at the time it not only covered the cost of my hobby, but increased my learning about various periods, and had me meeting some very interesting people I would not have got to know & visiting some interesting places. All much nicer than if I was stuck behind an office desk 9am-6pm. So that in later years I was able to do Battlefield guiding as a further (quite lucrative actually) sideline in the Summer months, and continue with the odd magazine article when it suited me.

So consider your week a mosaic, a patchwork of interesting activities. Perhaps painting as one element in your life gives you the chance to do other things as well. Things which will allow you to grow as a human being. Many would envy you your chance to be a 'Renaissance Man' and do just what you want when it interests you.

It's all good, as they say on the telly!

Is this permanent offer, I Drink Your Milkshake? :)
Speed must be 5 figures in hour or at least 400 figures in month.
Only remains to be determined, what level of quality this "drool worthy" is. If it matches with 5 dollars for figure, then all is OK!

As with all things artistic, you can do what you love and not make any money on it, or you can do something that pays the bills and be an artist in your spare time. Even wealthy rock stars are less than one in 100 musicians.

There is several other factors in this whole equation. One is the amount of unused and painted armies that going up for sale. With the age of the hobby, there are those who are cutting back and thus selling off either parts or all of their collections.

These are individuals that don't really care about price per hour, but what they can get for their collections. This is also why you have other individuals who buy up collections at very reasonable or cheap prices and then resale them via ebay, internet store, or flea markets.

The second, is the same thing all business in this hobby have to face, gamers that do things to raise the money they need to support their hobby. These individuals are not concerned with a working wage, they are looking to get back what they need to support what they want to do. If they want a large army and they can paint rather fast and good, then sell some units to buy a nice supply of metal.

US minimum wage is $7.45 USD or about $15,000 USD/year which interestingly is about 10,000 pounds. Having lived in the UK, I would say everything is cheaper here. Generally, if it cost a pound in the UK it cost a dollar here. Gas is $3.50 USD, food is much cheaper (You could get an all you can eat buffet for $6 USD-$7. No VAT.

How about medical care and pension plan thomally? Here health care is free at point of use, and allegedly we get a state pension at 60… no 62….no hang on it's 63….. no wait it's 65….. no, no it's 66 now. They are putting up the age of entitlement quicker than I can age to receive it!!! :)

VAT doesnt apparently get levied on essentials like supermarket food, but 20% on cooked food. Fish and chips or a McD's is about a fiver to take away.

On the other hand I dare't tell you how much tax and duty we pay on a UK gallon of fuel.

You can see how much here:

PDF link

but I warn you you wont like it so make sure you are sitting down!

I think most of the salient points have been summed up here already… that's basically that if you do this full time you aren't going to get rich working for war-gamers, however if job satisfaction and a relaxed working environment counts for something, you can paint quickly and have a well established customer base you can get by.

I work full time as a miniature artist and sculptor. By and large I don't take on many painting commissions for war-gamers as after paying the overheads of running my industrial unit (rates, rent, utilities insurance and taxes etc) the "going rate" doesn't leave anything for a wage. I make my living out of model making, sculpting and painting miniatures for TV and advertising projects along with some museum work. Getting commissions is a tough business and fiercely competitive, but the stress and ludicrously short deadlines do mean if you do get a job what you are paid for say eight weeks work could be more than many may make in a year from the hobby market, though as it's not unheard of to work 120+hr weeks and miss some nights sleep altogether you have to factor in "un-paid" time off in the weeks afterwards to recover, sleep and remind your family that you still exist.

In short I earn my living from about six months intensive work a year and treat the odd projects for the hobby market as a means of relaxation to keep my business ticking over for the other six months.

There is no living to be made on wargaming-period. If you like painting then do it, but most wargamers are too cheap to pay what the work is actually "worth". I am a fast painter not a great painter which means I don't have piles of lead laying around. I either paint it or dump it on ebay or here.
There are a few periods/scales that I would pay a premium for, like zombies for some reason I can't paint them or civilians so I paid over $400 USD on a lot of them.
I have painted over 5,000 napoleonics/ACW in my lifetime at a pace of 12 per hour (excluding priming,basing)about 18 days out of my life and if I totaled up what I sold it all for I would probably go shoot myself.

How about medical care and pension plan thomally?

Unless you have a major employer, medical care is out of pocket and pension is a meager sum collected over your work life and doled out at minimalist rates after age 62-70.

Folks making minimum wage don't normally have medical insurance or pensions and there's very little opportunity to save to pay for either.

A source of painters is….college kids. Find a bunch looking for pizza and beer money and you can get $1 USD/fig paint jobs: the kid gets pocket money and you get to put figs out much faster. Is it award-winning painting? Hardly. Is better than rolling out unpainted figs in public? You betcha.

I do think it's possible to make an ok living from painting commissions, but you're definitely not going to get rich from it.

My husband and I have recently got serious about our services and we're managing ok – and we're slowly building up a regular customer base. Our income is also helped along with some eBay sales of new painting projects we wanted to test and try out.

Perhaps we're managing because there's the two of us. I take care of the admin side and paint a little, while Jay is the "full-time" painter. Though, I can imagine if it was just Jay trying to do both the painting and the admin by himself it would definitely be a struggle – so perhaps partnerships are the way to go.

Regarding money, I believe what we charge is competitive and decent for the standard we paint… and we definitely don't churn stuff out, we take our time (within reason) over each project to make sure we are giving our clients great looking models. And we're definitely not going to get rich doing this, we do it because we like doing it and the money we earn supports our way of life… (put it this way we'd rather do this and live frugally than work our asses to the bone at a boring 9-5 job that pays ok but sucks out your soul). :)

did it for 15 years and made a living but it was just me and my wife..once my daughter came along needed a job with benefits cause no one self employed can afford health insurance for a family..now with retirement here just us again so I can afford to go back but only for 20mm and larger,,,,leave the little stuff for young eyes