"What sort of private army can you get away with?" Topic

What sort of private army can you get away with in the world today, and where could it be based?

Governments and corporations are turning to private military contractors for protection in many places. I recently posted a news article looking at the top 5 military contractors. They had APCs, small arms and even small helicopters armed with missiles and canons. There was a book called something like "Gunship ace" which detailed the exploits of a private contractor who flew a Hind (but that I guess was the property of the government).

Do governments draw the line at artillery and more military aircraft, or could you get away with such items some jurisdictions?

The UN rent vehicles from national governments. Perhaps there would be an opening to lease military vehicles in peace keeping operations.

Where could you base your private army? Africa?

The Su-25 would be a "must have" item for my private army

Could big corporations establish micro-nations by buying bits of unproductive territory? A bit like this idea perhaps?

link

Regards

I'm pretty sure Executive Outcomes / Ibis Air had at least one Hind and even a couple of MiG-23s on their own inventory, besides kit owned by various governments that they operated. They also had BMP-2s, and possibly tanks as well.

As an afterthought it would probably be much harder to assemble a similar force now – they really were a product of their time, and the acquisition of heavy kit is a lot better regulated than a decade or two ago.

Well they've not found the underground hangar and barracks yet so I would think that……………….

I've already said too much.

DM

You don't have to maintain the equipment in your own country.Or even own in the companies name . Thats what shell Corparations and renting a secure facility near the theater of action is all about.The equipment is disassembled in shipping Crates ready to be delivered . You dont have to really negotiate with the host country if you already have a contract . when the equipment is delivered uncrate it put it together.Or simply provide Pilots and main crews and use what the host country has. The first thing I always look at when taking a job is the exfill plan lol show me the equipment and Ill keep the aircrew close and nder watch…glad i dont work jobs anymore too old…Mikey

Brilliant Mikey !

To answer the title of this post – As much as you can afford …

Very interesting, Mikey.

BTW, have you ever read Dogs of War – a book from the 60s, I think. A great read about Mercenaries.

My guess is there are two restrictions. The cash to purchase/refit/maintain it and the connections to buy it. You can't just call Boeing and as for the fighter sales department. Actually it would be interesting to see if that would work…

As Mikey said, You could just have a warehouse full of misc "parts" that could be shipped out to an operations area and assembled into whatever.

As an afterthought it would probably be much harder to assemble a similar force now – they really were a product of their time, and the acquisition of heavy kit is a lot better regulated than a decade or two ago.

You can't just call Boeing and as for the fighter sales department. Actually it would be interesting to see if that would work…

You could just have a warehouse full of misc "parts" that could be shipped out to an operations area and assembled into whatever.

Those pesky End User Certificates keep rearing their ugly little heads…

Yes read book and saw the movie, "The Dogs of War" … seemed fairly accurate … somewhat …

BTW, have you ever read Dogs of War

I was about to recommend that too.
Forsyth's foreword, "At least we tried" seems eerie. Appatrently the book is pretty close to the truth. He had his fingers in a lot of pies.

See the Atholl Highlanders

Private armies I really do not think so. Just ask Blackwater who is facing charges for exporting automatic weapons to Afghanistan. The days of private armies running around the world willy nilly are the work of bad fiction and pre end of the Cold War. Just ask the kid arrested for working with the free Syrian Army who now faces charges of using a weapon of mass destruction in a Virginia courtroom.

VR
James Mattes

The Nicolas Cage film (wait – hear me out!) "Lord of War" is pretty instructional on this subject.

I worked for a company in Iraq for over two years. I have to agree with vojvoda on this. The thing that most everyone is missing on privte companies being able to obtain the heavy weapons. Anyone can fly into Baghdad and go to the market and buy a rifle, grenades, rpg and go to work. But to obtain modern good quality weapons and armored vehicles. You need a contract with a government agency. Under that contract you can be authorized to obtain items the normal security guard can not obtain.

Perfect example is Black Water. When they had the contract doing security for the US state dept. They could pretty much obtain what ever they needed to do that contract. Also that former company has been charged with illegally exporting automatic weapons to Afghanstan. Their lawyers contend they were working for the CIA. They better hope they have the documents to confirm this, or someone is going to jail. If they were dumb enough to assist the CIA on an handshake from a field agent. Then they got took, and someone could go to jail.

The company I worked for provided all of your weapons, armor and kit. We had armored vehicles, helicopters with door gunners and even a couple corp. jets. Each of us had letters from the Iraqi MOI, State Dept and our company specifically listing what we were authorized to have.

Another big thing you have to remember, A Mercenary is considered a war criminal under US Federal and International Law. They are compared to Nazi camp guards and the SS. So if you meet a PSC/PMC and call them a mercenary. You'll probably get punched in the face, I've seen a couple reporters have this happen to them. lol

What is the big difference between a mercenary and a private security contractor? A PSC works for a legal company that has legal contracts with a recognized government entity. Plus the PSC can not participate in offensive operations.
Remember the Flying Tigers that helped defend China from Japan. In modern times they would be considered PSC. Now if they were flying bombers or flying offensive missions, they'd be mercenaries and under current federal and international law. Criminals. (I have no clue what the law was back then)

The media kept reporting in iraq the number of contractors outnumbered the military. Yep, but 80% of them were cooks and serving staff in the chow hall, or FOB support staff that cleaned the porta potties. Worked on the plumbing and A/C in the military buildings. Less than 10% were armed PSC's that left the FOB's on their own doing security.

So the ex-army vet who went to Syria to fight. The FBI met with him prior to him returning to the USA. I'm not sure what was said during that meeting. But when he returned to the USA, he was arrested. Best thing he could have done was claim he was a freelance photo journalist! hahahaha Cause how it was reported in the media, he's going to jail.

I wanted to relate a story told to me by a friend that was a navy seal for 20 years. He retired and worked for the same company I worked with. He said this was declassified.

Back in the early 1990's his team was tasked to go into a country in africa to locate an ex-SAS guy. Thier brief was this ex-SAS guy was training a group of mercs. for some warlord. Training…. not running missions or planning operations, just training. Thier orders were to locate him and "take care of him." So I said, that sounds like to kill him. My friend said thats how they looked at it. I asked him if they located him. My friend said they were on the ground for a little over a week and were pulled out. They were told the SAS had located the guy and took care of their own…….. You can make your own interpretation. So you go work for someone who is planning to destabilize a region. you can bring down a world of hurt onto yourself.

Thank you Ironwolf for clarifying the difference between PMCs and mercenaries.

The Dogs of War was about mercenaries i.e. people engaged in an illegal offensive operation. The operation planners had to go to great lengths to obtain weapons (MP40s from a forgotten German warehouse snatched by a couple of Belgians at the end of WW2), and especially for 9mm ammunition – end user certificate illegally obtained from some state or other in a very convoluted way. I think they had the operation approved by the British foreign office (off the record).

We take the internet for granted now, but they had to rely on sending letters back and forth to get all of this sorted.

There looks like it's a thin line in some cases between PMCs vs. Mercs … PMCs are more like a legal business corperation … Where Mercs may actually a bit more covert and in-the-shadows, so to speak. Then of course there is the FFL which is a state sponsered Merc unit … But I think Ironwolf covered it well …

Mark Thatcher (British Prime Minister Margaret Thatchers son)has a long history of being involved with arms smuggling and merc work. In 2005 Mark Thatcher pleaded guilty to breaking anti-mercenary legislation in South Africa. Back in the 1980's he left England to avoid investigation into arms deal he was involved in. In the link below is some of the details of his arrest. Notice the part that says he met with SA intel prior to his arrest. Then pleads guilty and pays a fine. This makes me suspect he provided information to avoid jail. Sounds like a plea agreement but who really knows? lol

link

I've seen the Dogs of War movie and of course have the wild geese dvd. lol

"Dom skelton: Posted Executive Outcomes."

The guys who formed and operated Executive Outcomes really brought Mercenaries to a new level. Which made western governments stand up and take notice. They soon shut Executive Outcomes down. Not for doing anything illegal at the time. But because they were successful and were a potential threat down the line. Nothing scares a government more than a Corporate Army that they have no control over. lol

Chortle: Prior to internet and computers, it was harder to track end user certificates. So the hard part was finding a corrupt official to accept your money for what you wanted. In modern times its easier to track even the best made plans. lol
link

Legion 4: You are very correct. The company I worked for had two retired generals and Al Gore on their board of directors. They provided airplanes, helicopters, security, logistics and support functions in hostile areas all over the world. The majority of their contracts were with the USA and UK government agencies. Not with the over all government, but with each individual agency with in that government. That way it makes it easier for the government to maintain oversite and harder for the public to become aware of it.

Corporations started outsourcing manufacturing jobs 20 – 30 years ago. Other major corporations started doing the same thing when they realized how much money they can save. So its not surprising the military and government have started to follow along the same model.

Sorry I keep rambling on but this topic is an interest with me. hahahaha

"Nicolas Cage film Lord of War"

the movie is based off of a real person, who is in jail. but notice in the movie when the LE's would get close. He had a government official tip him off.

The Sylvester Stallone moves The Expendables. They have a government sponsor.

So could these things really happen? I'd be surprised if they are not. But the ones that are not associated with a legal government, won't last long.

I'd think if I was to use my "skills", I'd only go with legal "businesses" associated with a stable government … Or the FFL … But I'm way to old and far too large for this type of employment …

The sticker in all this is not just U.S. law, but ITAR. You'd need to have government sanction of at least one, maybe more national governments, to get around that.