"They're coming for your monuments" Topic

First it was renaming roads. Then renaming parks. Now, they're coming for the monuments. This won't be the last.

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Shakespeare was right about lawyers, well most of them.

Around these parts, the word (lawyers) is pronounced like "liars". If the shoe fits…

Yup. Too many lawyers I find bloviate only to get a "name"..

This guy needs to be beaten like the proverbial harp seal.

Jerk.

Eric

And trust Fox to be the ones to air such drivel

Drivel? I find efforts to eradicate and sanitize the past to be anything but drivel.

They want to re-carve Stone Mountain, Ga. too.

I think Mt. Rushmore should be resculpted to reflect the leaders of the LGBTQ community. One of the existing figures can stay: you guess which.

Having seen the ease with which the attorney in question is regularly beaten from one end of Loudoun County Circuit Court to the other (in cases that a drunken first year law student could win, it must be said), it becomes quite easy to see just why he's blaming the statue.

If he spent a little less time playing politics, and a bit more time actually advocating for the people who have paid good money for his 'skills', justice – and his clients – would be far better served.

Just another example of the lost cause raising its head. Let it go, the South lost and it wasn't because they were stabbed in the back. There was a major effort starting in the beginning in the early 20th century to rewrite the history of the war by the South, from "Birth of a Nation" to "Gone with the wind". Then a group of Southern historians rewriting and retelling the war. There is nothing noble about 700,000 men dying and the millions wounded in body and soul by that war. It was dirty and grim, just like every war in every century. There is no nobility in war, no great noble cause, just death and suffering.

The older I get the more the supporters of the lost cause myth and its nobility sound like certain Germans in the 20s and 30s on why they didn't lose the war because they were beaten, but only betrayed. No the South was beaten into the ground and stomped on at the cost of too many men and then they were allowed to rejoin the Union with all their old rights, but one- the right of one man to own another.

nd then they were allowed to rejoin the Union with all their old rights, but one- the right of one man to own another

Or, evidently, the right to commemorate the sacrifice of its citizens.

I think the lawyer in question is an idiot looking for publicity.

That being said, I oppose any public monument to people who waged war on the United States of America.

One doesn't place monuments to ones dead in court houses, you put them in cemeteries and town squares. Why would one wait 43 years to put up a monument to ones citizens. Why not right after the war? That way you honor the widows and orphans, not the great grandkids.

Doug Redshirt has a good point, too many people lose site of the fact that the Confederacy represent evil to a large percent of the american public. So it is not surprising to me that as the demographics change in the population of the south, those people who see the Confederate monuments as distasteful and want them removed.

So it is not surprising to me that as the demographics change in the population of the south, those people who see the Confederate monuments as distasteful and want them removed.

Which I get. Although that swings both ways, of course. That's why you wait 43 years to put it up. Same reason you pull it down later. And put up another a decade from now. Maybe a 100 foot tall Stonewall Jackson hologram. And that's totally alright, as long as it reflects the current mood, I suppose.

For those not familiar with the layout of the Courthouse grounds in Leesburg, Virginia, the lawn where the statue is located is essentially the "town square", at it is adjacent to the cross streets (Rtes 7 and 15) that bisect the town into its four quadrants.

This is a memorial to the soldiers of the local Confederate units that fought and died in the war, NOT a monument to the Confederate government, its leadership, or the political views held.

>>And trust Fox to be the ones to air such drivel
>Drivel? I find efforts to eradicate and sanitize the past to be anything but drivel.

Fox "news" is good at finding a lone nutjob and displaying the person out of context on their show, to make it look like some vast conspiracy is out there rather then just some nut.

MSNBC would like to do the same thing from the opposite side of the political spectrum but just doesn't have its acto together.

"That being said, I oppose any public monument to people who waged war on the United States of America."

Yet, oddly enough, the people who actually fought against those Southerners had no problem at all with them putting up those monuments.

"One doesn't place monuments to ones dead in court houses, you put them in cemeteries and town squares. Why would one wait 43 years to put up a monument to ones citizens. Why not right after the war?"

Because the South's economy was destroyed and it took that long to recover. Using your logic we should never have built the WWII monument in Washington because it took 50 years.

FOX is good at finding news that other outlets don't cover. I like that. Not always as fair and balanced as they say, but good nevertheless.

I find it hard to believe that after more than one hundred years, there are people who suddenly find themselves intimidated by this memorial.

Wondering why this discussion isn't over on the Fez…?

(and, BTW, had one or more relatives on each side in the
war…)

I completely understand anybody who doesn't like Southern memorials. If your ancestors were held in slavery, you'd be a little bitter too. Now that black Americans have begun to gain more and more power, they legitimately feel they could and should remove any reminders of or memorials honoring those who repressed them. You don't have to be black to agree with them either. Such feelings and emotions are only human. So, I completely understand the sentiment.

Nearly every small town square here in Georgia has a statue or some type of memorial to their Confederate veterans.

That being said, those who's family fought for the South were just as proud of them. Not all fought to preserve slavery, even if that would be the ultimate consequence of a victory. Some just fought because their homes were being attacked. They just wanted to choose how to live their own lives, slavery or otherwise: they didn't want somebody else telling them what to do. The point is, as human beings, they were proud of their veterans and communities too. That's why they put up memorials.

So, it just comes down to two competing human emotions. One wants to erase any reminders of their past in bondage. One wants to preserve the memory of their ancestor's military heritage.

Who is right?

I think in 100 years, as memories fade even more, there will be fewer and fewer Confederate memorials around, that's for sure.

Maybe after 100 years they feel they finally can speak up about it.

I have no patience with Confederate apologists who claim the south was defending states' rights, not slavery, when the "right" they were defending was that of holding slaves. That said, they have a point that the north forcibly imposed its values (i.e., abolition) on the south. It appears this PC hack is looking for his 15 minutes by doing the same. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." At least this time, the war likely will be fought in a courtroom, not on the battlefield. Yes, those who oppose the statue can claim their rights are being trampled by its presence. But that presence serves as a reminder of the past we apparently cannot remember.

Whatever, Flannery says "It's a living, active courthouse, which already has challenges in terms of discrimination in terms of persons of color, and not only them." If that's true, it'll take a lot more than moving the statue to change it.

If I freely expressed myself on this topic,I'd get Dawghoused.But, I'm feeling mighty oppressed by all this PC that's being forced on me by my own people. At least the Indians got to fight back.

Doug Redshirt,aptly named. Waving the Bloody shirt?

Whatever, Flannery says "It's a living, active courthouse, which already has challenges in terms of discrimination in terms of persons of color, and not only them." If that's true, it'll take a lot more than moving the statue to change it.

That's a load of crap. As a resident of the County in qustion who has been on an all-white jury that deliberated on the fate of an Hispanic man accused by a white woman of assualt, in a trial held in that very courthousee, I can assure you that his race/ethnicity was never even considered. We found him not guilty. Flannery is an ass.

We have a rope,
We have a tree,
all we need is an a-ttor-ney

Political correctness is the lawyer-driven bane of American society. I'm a minority but somehow don't feel the need to wring my hands every time something occurs that could offend me. Grow up America.

You boys in the north aren't clean when it comes to civil rights. What you and your kind did to the Indians is despicable, so quit trying to take the high road on the issue of slavery. We are all dirty, so live with it.

"I'm feeling mighty oppressed by all this PC that's being forced on me by my own people. At least the Indians got to fight back."

Well, this isn't being moved by jackbooted thugs at the point of a bayonet. One guy is trying to have it removed in the courts, and other people are opposing him.

"I completely understand anybody who doesn't like Southern memorials. If your ancestors were held in slavery, you'd be a little bitter too. Now that black Americans have begun to gain more and more power, they legitimately feel they could and should remove any reminders of or memorials honoring those who repressed them. You don't have to be black to agree with them either. Such feelings and emotions are only human. So, I completely understand the sentiment."

I'm of English decent and hate Italians because the Romans conqured my ancestors. I'm also of Welsh descent and hate the English because they conquered Wales. I'm also of Scottish descent and hate the English because they conquered Scotland. I'm also of German descent and hate the…never mind, you get the idea. Get over it folks. There's no one alive in this country that was born a slave and it's been more than 50 years since that SOB Jim Crow was killed. Far too many people today enjoy being the victim.

Your analogy would only hold water of your relatives were being lynched by Romans 50 years ago.

I'll agree with the Inspector. If I gave my true feelings on this subject I would be dog housed and the key thrown away. I have been giving school presentations as a Tiger Rifle for thirty years, and have answered this question many times on states rights vs. slavery. And how I could be a confederate reenactor. I can tell you jr. high and high school students are willing to see both sides, much better than their parents. But on the whole they all agree, you can't judge what happened 150 years ago by todays standards. TIG

I'm of English decent and hate Italians because the Romans conqured my ancestors. I'm also of Welsh descent and hate the English because they conquered Wales. I'm also of Scottish descent and hate the English because they conquered Scotland. I'm also of German descent and hate the…

"The French hate the Germans. The Germans hate the Poles. Italians hate Yugoslavs. South Africans hate the Dutch and I don't like anybody very much!

They're rioting in Africa. There's strife in Iran. What nature doesn't do to us will be done by our fellow man."

…apologies to The Kingston Trio

John Flannery=Lionel Hutz

I agree with Dn Jackson. Let's erase every monument and reference to slavery so no one is offended, then no one is reminded, then its forgotten completely so we can do the same damned thing again.

@firstvarty1979:

That's a load of crap.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were responding to Flannery's quote, not my comment thereon. Otherwise, you took that part of my post way out of context – I agree he's an ass. But either way, just moving the statue won't make any difference.

@Choctaw:

Political correctness is the lawyer-driven bane of American society.

Amen, brother!

I'm a minority but somehow don't feel the need to wring my hands every time something occurs that could offend me.

Amen, brother!

Grow up America.

Amen, brother!

You boys in the north aren't clean when it comes to civil rights. What you and your kind did to the Indians is despicable, so quit trying to take the high road on the issue of slavery.

Now, hold on there, brother! Yes, what was done to the Indians (or to be PC, Native Americans) was despicable. But it wasn't just us northern boys and "our kind" – plenty of you southern boys also had a hand in it. But quit trying to pass off the hypocrisy of the civil war as a defense of states rights when it was a defense of slavery, regardless whether that institution was good, bad or indifferent (which is a debate for another day).

We are all dirty, so live with it.

Can I get one last Amen, brother?!

@tigrifsgt:

have answered this question many times on states rights vs. slavery.

So what is your answer? I think I've made my position clear but I really am interested in hearing your thoughts.

I can tell you jr. high and high school students are willing to see both sides, much better than their parents. But on the whole they all agree, you can't judge what happened 150 years ago by todays standards.

"Out of the mouths of babes" – they're exactly right. Too bad our minds get narrower as we get older.

"…apologies to The Kingston Trio"

Actually, Tom Lehrer wrote that.

I hope many of you have the same "level headed" outlook when the demographics of the USA reach a point where the folks decide it's time to take the Flag Raising on Iwo Jima Monument down, knock down the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, or bulldoze the Viet Nam Wall to put in a fast food joint!!!

Yeah, I really hope you all keep the same attitude through all of that!!!

"I say we replace all monuments with something inoffensive like a ball or a cube."

Patrick R, May 17 2013

"It is an abomination that represent everything that is evil in this world and it should be banished ! If only because of those sharp corners ! Will nobody think of the children, the Mesmerists or the Seventh Day Pokemonists ?"

Jerome C Dummfawnded anti-cubic monument activist, May 17 3013

"Roundness is a sign of backwardness, insularity and regression, for the greater good, all balliform monuments must be banished."

Tiffany-Madison Palimpktovkish, Squareist Philosopher and Boutique owner, May 17 3013.

"Your analogy would only hold water of your relatives were being lynched by Romans 50 years ago."

ead the post I quoted. My analogy is spot on.

If you're going to remove monuments – take all of them from both sides – off of the major battlefields and get the woods back to their condition in the 1860's. You can leave the guns in place though. That would make visits more interesting and stops people asking 'How did they fight the battle with all these monuments in the way' which I overheard a woman asking a ranger at Vicksburg.

…… too many people lose site of the fact that the Confederacy represent evil to a large percent of the american public.

Can someone please point me to the empirical data that a LARGE percent of the American Public view the Confederacy as representing evil.

Well?

VR
James Mattes

Unfortunately history is full of soldiers fighting gallantly for their county under the command of so called "evil regimes" or for a "bad cause" … One man's freedom fighter/hero is another's war criminal. Slavery, Imperialism, Nazism, Fascism, Communism, the Crusades, not to mention islamic fundamentalism to name a few, were bad ideas … And it is sad but true in my experience, that a large percent of the American public have little or no idea about the what the Confederacy represented … Now ask them about who won the game last night or what Kim, Snooky, J-Lo, JZ, Paris, etc,. are doing, they can give you a detailed description …

If I could, I'd add a "Like" to to the last posts made by vagamer63, Patrick R, and Legion 4. :)

I am generally not comfortable with rewriting history or choosing to bowdlerize the bits we don't like anymore or are unfashionable. History should be about recognizing the truth and remembering the times and peoples involved, not an unending partisan wrangle with contemporary conceits overlaid. There was a good reason back in the days to allowing the defeated South some sop to their sense of loss and waste. Didn't Lincoln, the South's wisest enemy, want to reconcile the nation again and prevent the sort of bitterness we have seen in places like Ireland, where the defeated never forget and were not allowed to openly mourn their dead or celebrate their brave defenders? The myth of the Lost Cause is fairly benign given the alternatives that might have taken place -- guerilla warfare and continued rebellions springing up from grievances nursed in silence.

I see the view of those who find these memorials distasteful, but they have a historical relevance that is not without some merit. But the fact that these disputes still occur shows how far this country still has to go in terms of race relations and attitudes. I believe in remembering history, warts and all, but not erasing it and not being beholden to it.

I'd just like to point out that this guy isn't advocating for the destruction of the monument, he just wants it out of the courthouse, but remaining extant. He's not trying to erase history.

Flannery has a reputation in certain circles of being a bit of a <<Bleep>>, but I don't think this is the place to go into him or his causes.

On a broader level, mythologizing history isn't limited to Confederate sympathizers, to the ACW, or even to US. Quite often those who are challenging these myths aren't doing so to set the record straight. They are instead pushing some alternate myth.

Can someone please point me to the empirical data that a LARGE percent of the American Public view the Confederacy as representing evil.

And even when they do, I'll happily await the ACLU and related organizations to step up and defend the minority's right to preserve their cultural landmarks.