"German allocation of 88mm AT guns in 1940" Topic

I'm building a German 1940 force in 6mm. What would be the likely availability of 88s to a battalion level commander? I'm interested in where they sat in the German TOE and how they were allocated.

Or to put it another way if I spot Matilda IIs coming down the road who do I need to contact to get the 88's I need to deal with them. How many might I get and where from.

Last but not least what would constitute a battery of 88s in terms of tow vehicles ammo carriers etc.

In short, very few. In 1940, other than those in special bunker buster batteries (12 SP & 18 towed guns IIRC); the rest of the 88s would be in Luftwaffe FlaK battalions. My copy of Jentz is out in the shed & it's pouring with rain!

Contrary to the popular mythology, the gun line that stopped the Matildas at Arras was mostly composed of the divisional 105mm artillery in the direct fire role.

Tows would be the usual sdkfz 7, except for the above mentioned bunker busters which used a specially armoured Sdkfz 8.

They were generally found in Corps & Army level Flak battalions. It is notable in Guderians orders to his entire Corps for the Meuse crossing that he specifies the attachment and location of individual 88mm guns, they really didn't have many at all… not for shooting at tanks any way. Flak battalions assigned at divisional level were a rarity in 1940.

Far more available would be the regimental gun company (good luck with that, SS Totenkopf ran and abandoned all their regt guns when overrun by Matildas), or the divisional artillery regiment. 100mm K18s firing over open sights will completely demolish even the heaviest tank (which was why they were used against KV-2s), 105mm and 150mm howitzers firing direct are also quite unpleasant.

Having said that, it is commonplace for 1940s era wargames armies to have a section of 88s (2 guns) attached at company/battalion level. After all, our chaps are the spearhead or whatever.

1943 organisation of a Heer heavy Flak battery here:

link

4th Panzer Div had a 88mm Flak Bn attached from 18th May from HG Flak Regt. XIX Panzer Corp (guderian) had the t 1./schwere Pzjager 8 attached (10x 88mm Flak (sfl) auf Sdkfz 8)on the 9th June and ID 21 had the 1./560 schwere Panzer jager (88mm) attached to it for 10th June

Thanks for the replies guys. Martin the Regimental Gun company would be using the 100mm K18s you mentioned would it? Any info on the standard make up of one of these companies would be much appreciated. I'm looking for a realistic force make up rather than a force with every killer weapon system concentrated into one ahistorical formation so I may go for this option over 88s.

As an aside if the 88 was in Luftwaffe AA units how did it come to be used in an AT role? Was it already envisaged as an AT gun or did the AA units have a stock pile of AT rounds or an AA round that would do the job?

Greetings

Regimental gun company – usually 2 x sIG33 15cm infantry guns and 6 x leIG18 7.5cm infantry guns. Not sure of ammo issue at this stage and certainly no way of taking out heavy armour.

Regimental AT company – 12 (I think) 3.7cm PAK. In 1940 the same guns equipped the divisional AT battalion.

Divisional artillery regiment – often 2 battalions each 3 batteries of leFH18 10.5cm howitzers and one battalion with 2 batteries of sFH18 15cm howitzers and one battery of K18 10cm guns. Normally 4 guns per battery.

Regards

Edward

Thanks Edward

I had picked up on the SIG33 and 75mm Inf guns from the excellent Bayonet Strength site. The divisional support is exactly what I was looking for. Off to finish my order for more lead now :-)

In most of the WWII armies, anti-aircraft guns tended to be mainly divisional level assets – and even then they were mostly lighter field pieces (20-40 mm caliber). Heavier guns (75+ mm) would be more likely to be higher than divisional level assets.

At the battalion or regimental level, the most likely anti-aircraft weapons would be various AAMGs. That said, there are some exceptions where light AA-guns could be found at a lower level – such as with the late war German panzer and panzergrenadier formations.

You know this is absolute heresy to to folks who love deploy at least four different flavors of 88 – and all in the anti tank role – on a table 4 feet wide :)

Which is exactly what I want to avoid. Hence my questions. Keep the info coming guys. About the divisional and regimental artillery used in a direct fire role, what were they taking on tanks with HE or an AT specific round?

Both the 75mm leIG and 150mm SIG were issued a HEAT round, it wasn't very effective in 1940.

The 105mm leFH was issued an AP round, the 150mm wasn't but as the Sovs found with their 152mm guns, once you start chucking 6" shells at enemy tanks it doesn't matter what they are filled with.

The 100mm K18 was a gun not a howitzer and had a high muzzle velocity, so even though the shell was smaller than the 150mm, it had a similar devastating effect if it hit anything. Using a 12 ton gun firing three part ammo as an AT weapon isn't particularly easy of course.

As regards when it as first used. I believe it was discovered to have tank busting abilities in the Spanish Civil War. However not sure when proper AT ammo was issued. Certainly the tanks that were used in the SCW had paper thin armour such as the T26 and therefore specialist ammo would probably no be needed.

I don't think it was used wide spread in an AT role until the desert campaign of which it became famous or infamous depending on ones point of view.

Depending on which "Welle" defines the support weapons allocated for early war Inf Divs.1e Welle had 2x 15cm Sig33 and and x6 75mm Lei IG 18, 2e, 3e/4e Welle had 8x 75mm Le.IG 18 in their Regt gun company.

All Regiments had 12x pak 36 in their Regt Anti tank Company.
1e,2e and 4e welle had a Reiter Sqn and a Pioneer platoon at regimental level.

So really as a Bn coomander you would be limited to what is held a Regimental level up to Div.

Direct fire 10.5cm Le FH were commonly seen such as the battles at Juniville and Flavion were these weapons stopped attacks by Char B1's.

10cm K18 usually were a Corps weapon, 15cm sFH were used during 1940 as a direct Bunker buster as at Gijzenzelle in Belgium.

Only the following dedicated Heavy Anti tank Battalions had 88's.

525th,560th and the 605th each had 3x companies of 2x platoons of 2x towed 88's and 2x platoons of 2x Pak 36.

The 1./8th had 3x platoons of 2x SP 88's auf sdkf 8

Rommel claims 88mm AA + anti-tank guns stopped the advance south of Arras. A 105 battery was involved in attempting to stop the initial advance, but was overrun.

Rommel says in the Rommel Papers "One of our howitzer batteries was already in postion at the norther exit of the village (Ficheux), firing rapidly on enemy tanks attacking southwards from Arras…… After notifying divisional staff…we drove off to a hill 1,000m west of the village, where we found a light AA troop and several anti tank guns….The crew of the howitzer battery now left their guns, swept along by the retreating infantry. With Most's help I brought every available gun into action… Every gun both anti-tank and anti-aircraft was ordered to open rapid fire immediately and I personally gave each gun its target. We enemy tanks so perilously close, only rapid fire from every gun could save the situation. We ran from gun to gun. Over the howitzer battery also – despite a range of 1,200-1,500 m – the rapid fire of our anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns succeeded in bringing the enemy to a halt and forcing some of them to turn away… Finally divisional artillery and 88mm anti-aircraft batteries succeeded in bringing the enemy armour to a halt south of the line Beaurains-Agny"

So i looks like the 105s were the first line of defence but it was anti-tank and AA guns – must include 88s – that stopped the advance.

I found this on Feldgrau

the Luftwaffe Flak units attached to 7th Panzer Division during the 21 May Arras counterattack were;

Schwere Flak-Abteilung 23 (88mm)
2 leichte Batterie Flak-Abteilung 59 (20mm)
2 Batterie Flak-Abteilung 86 (unknown if this was a schwere or leichte batterie

He says 28 tanks were destroyed by artillery and 8 by 88s.

Most of those would have been Matilda Is (and probably a few MkVI light) though. There were only 16 Matilda II in total in the British OOB for the battle. Rommel also mentions Light AA, which doesn't suggest 88mm guns to most people.

There are actually photos around (possibly taken by Rommel himself) showing the gun line which includes 105mm guns & light Flak guns along with an 88. I can't find it online at the moment.

An interesting post by David Lehman re the 1940 tank battles here. link

iirc the overrun howitzer battery mentioned was Totenkopfs regimental gun company.

Richard Holmes 'war walk' around the Arras battlefield covered the events pretty thoroughly, including the gun line on the ridge – essentially the div artillery regiment thickened with Flak. A common assignment for AA units in general was protection of artillery and supply assets, who are far more vulnerable to air attack than dug in infantry and tanks.

Some of the Mark VIs were literally blown to pieces by 105mm hits.

Martin, very interesting, will look up that war walk.

Liddle Hart states that 1st Army Tank Brigade had 58 Mk 1s and 16 Mk IIs, but does not mention any Mk VIs. Is their an oob reference anywhere?

Brilliant info as always thanks all.

I was wondering about the MkVI as well (much cooler than the German version). Also, were they Bs or Cs? I'd imagine Bs if they were part of a tank brigade but await education.

Having watched the Holmes war walk (thanks Martin!) I can make better sense of Rommel's comments. The tanks advanced in two columns, they got separated from their infantry – a battalion of Durham Light Infantry (which was on foot and got involved in a firefight). One column was halted by Rommel's action with the light AA and anti-tank guns + artillery battery, the second column ran into a divisional gun line of artillery and 88s (Rommel specifically speaks of 88s – see quote above). Overall the 88s destroyed 8 tanks (7 Matilda Mk 1s and 1 Mk II – again according to Rommel)

Niehorster OOB, & likely to be a lot more accurate than LH. The Light tanks were mostly in HQ units. link

And, by pure chance I've just opened Military Modelling Vol 43 No 3. (March 15th 2013 & new in shops in OZ this week) to find Peter Brown writing on the very topic.

4RTR had 7 Mark VIB on arrival in France in Sept 1939, 4 in BHQ & 1 in each of the 3 CHQ. 7RTR had the same allocation upon arrival in France & these were unchanged on 14th May 1940
Brigade HQ had 3 LT in lieu of the authorised ACV. He has a total of 17 Mark VI light in 1ATB.

By the Battle of Arras, the Brigade had 12 LTs left, 5 with 7RTR & 7 with 4RTR. The rest look to have been lost during the retreat from Belgium & possibly to mechanical failure rather than enemy action.

It looks like each battalion still had 4 each a couple of days after the battle. Although not explicitly specified, most if not all were B rather than C models.

Arras from the History of the 4th & 7th RTR -

link

Same site, Remarks on Arras by Brigadier Peter Vaux for a Regimental Battlefield Tour -

link

Doyle family history section on Sergeant Benjamin Doyle who received his DCM for Arras (regimental history above lists a Sergeant Boyle as the DCM recipient) -

doyle.com.au/history_pt9.htm

Both reference the 88s.

P.S. Posted from the second link previously during a discussion of tanks firing with jammed turrets. Second account notes that when stalking an 88 both of the Matilda IIs involved had jammed turrets and were aiming their guns by turning the tanks.

P.P.S. Everything I can find on Mk VIs says As and Bs for the BEF. About 2/3 As.