"Converting C&C:Ancients to miniatures - advice needed" Topic

Can anyone who has converted Command & Colors: Ancients (the basic set) to miniatures of any scale list what figure types they translated the C&C troop types into?

For example, Carthage's auxiliaries could be variously iberian caetrati, celts, perhaps Punic spears.

I'd like to get an accurate sense of how many minis I'd have to assemble for such a project in 15mm. I reckon using DBx style troops stands – with four such stands of 4 figs per standard infantry unit – will make them substantial and allow recycling for any of the DBx family of rules.

See this thread, if you haven't already:
TMP link

For my 6mm C&C:Ancients conversion, the Carthaginians become:

Light infantry � Greek Javelin or Spanish caetratii
Light bow � Greek bow
Light sling � Greek or Balearic sling
Auxilia infantry � Spanish scutarii, Moorish infantry
Warrior infantry � Celtic infantry
Medium infantry � African infantry
Heavy infantry � Veteran infantry
Light cavalry � Moorish light cavalry
Medium cavalry � Spanish Heavy cavalry
Heavy cavalry � Libyan cavalry, Celtic cavalry

Some of my choices were predicated on the basing of Baccus' 6mm figures so your choices may differ.

I have pictures of my C&C: Ancients in battle on my blog. One such posting showing Zama deployment is,

link

but you can search for other C&C: Ancients posts.

Jon

Thank you both. I managed to get in touch with Scott Macdowell and he said he worked off the following:

Punic Heavy Cavalry: Carthaginian Citizen Cavalry
Punic Medium Cavalry: Gallic and Spanish Heavy Cavalry
Punic Light Cavalry: Numidian, Gallic, and Spanish Light Cavalry
Punic Heavy Infantry: Carthaginian Citizen Spearmen, Veteran Libyan Spearmen, Sacred Band
Punic Medium Infantry: Libyan Spearmen, Spanish Scutari
Punic Warrior Infantry: Gallic and Celt-Iberian Warbands
Punic Auxiliaries: Spanish Caetari, Numidian Spearmen, Italian Allies (This is a tough category, and troop quality and training may count as much as equipment)
Punic Light Infantry: Numidian Javelinmen, Spanish Javelinmen, Gallic Javelinmen

Roman Heavy Cavalry: Elite Equites
Roman Medium Cavalry: Most Equites and all Italian Allies Heavy Cavalry
Roman Light Cavalry: Italian Allies Light Cavalry; Spanish, Gallic, and Numidian Allies
Roman Heavy Infantry: Triarii
Roman Medium Infantry: Roman Principes, Some Italian Allies
Roman Auxiliaries: Italian Allies, Roman Hastati
Roman Light Infantry: Velites

I just use 25mm based DBA, two bases per unit and track hits, played on Kallistra hexon.

I don't sweat unit types too much, slingers are slingers etc and double or triple sized DBA Punic armies provide enough of a mix.

I cut an Several Hundred pieces of Masonite sized 5" X 2 1/2". 4-6 for light infantry, 8-10 for Medium Infantry, and Auxillia, 10-12 figures for medium Infantry, 3 figures for light Cavalry and 5 figures for all other Cavalry.

I general agree with the previous posts for figures the various unit types.

must resist………….

Good game this could be interesting.

The two examples for mapping C&C A troops types to historical types make sense.

Normally the C&C A scenarios have about 18 units per side on average. 150% of DBA sized. Four DBA stands for each infantry unit and three per cavalry unit will result in figure counts of roughly 6 DBA armies. (500 units.) This is about double the figure count in coopman's example.

In 15mm, I use single DBA units and track losses with casualty rings. About 120 figures per army.

I prefer playing 28mm on 5-inch hexes. I use 12-man units for hvy infantry. 8-man for medium infantry. 6-man for aux. 4-man for light infantry. 3 for cavalry. I use casualty rings rather than figure removal. This is about 220 units per army.

Ether drake,

I am very much with S McD on this, the following is what I have done in units for doing the Epic battles for the Punic Wars:

Carthage:
HI. 8 Veterans, 4 Libyans, 1 Celt
MI. 4 Veterans, 3 Spanish Scutarii, 3 Celts
AI. 6 Spanish (Scu/Caet mix), 6 Italian, 4Libyan, 3 Celts
WI. 5 Celts
LI. 4 Spanish, 2 Moorish
LS. 2 Spanish (Balearics), 2 Celts
LC. 7 Moorish, 2 Spanish
MC 4 Spanish, 2 Celts, 2 Carthaginian
HC 1 Carthaginian, 1 Celt

Rome:

HI. 4 Triarii, 2 Italian Allies
MI. 6 Principes/Hastatii, 5 Italian Allies, 2 Spanish Scutarii
AI. 6 Principes/Hastatii, 5 Italian Allies, 6 Spanish Scutarii/Caetrati mix
LI 4 Velites, 3 Italians, 2 Moorish, 1 Spanish
LC. 6 Moorish
MC 2 Roman Equites, 2 Italian Allies, 2 Spanish

The Mixes and the use of the same troop types in different categories are explained by my buying into the idea that Richard Borg uses the grades in CCA to account for quality as well as equipment.

Mollinary

Bedford Gladiators had this game at Campaign at the weekend

(C&C:A on Kallistra hexagon terrain)

From Ancients on the Move/Campaign

Phil

Ether Drake, I did the same thing in 15mm. 4x DBx stands for infantry, 2 x for war machines, chariots and elephants(or one elephant and one skirmisher stand if you want to save on the bigger models), 3x DBx stands for cavalry and individually based models / small diorama bases for leaders.

Roman Aux, MI and HI troops are all based as heavy infantry (four to a stand) and I used hastati for auxilia unless in an army with non-Italian allies, in which case I'd use the allied troops as auxilia (peltasts, Iberians, Gauls, etc).

Skirmishers were velites (obviously), with a bunch of Cretan archers and Balearic slingers who could be pressed into service for either army.

For Carthage, you want Gauls and Celtiberians for your warriors, Iberians and Punic levies for your auxilia, Iberian caetrati and Numidians for your light infantry and, as mentioned, that pool of generic archers and slingers to be used as needed.

HI can be Libyan veterans, Punic citizens, Libyans re-armed as Romans after Trasimene, Bruttians, etc.

You want Gallic, Iberian and Punic Citizen cav, with plenty of Numidian light cavalry and some Iberian light cavalry, both of which lots can be used on either side as needed.

If you want to do the pre-Punic war battles, you'll need some Greek peltasts / hoplites to use for Syracuse, and chariots.

I got four elephants, usually two to a unit, but using them with skirmishers if needed. I might have skimped there; so you'll want to double check how many you need for Zama and Bagradas.

I can't remember exactly how many units I needed all told (I tend to play Lost Battles more these days!) but you can work that out from looking at the battles � and remember that if you have some 'morphables' who can do duty on both sides (even if not at the battle in question…) it's very handy. No one but yourself is likely to notice if you've used Iberian cav instead of equites…

Hope that helps a bit from the 15mm perspective.

Here's Zama, for a bat rep:

link

And a photo from the same:

Another from the first expansion:

Cheers,
Aaron

Thank you all for your advice. I really appreciate it.

Aaron, your setup looks great.

While the full 4 bases per unit will be my long term goal I will start out by going for one stand per unit and track casualties with the original counters.

This way it's the equivalent of prepping several DBA armies without amassing too great a lead mountain.

I figure that I can order Corvus Belli's Carthaginian, Numidian, Celtiberian and Gallic DBA sets with a few extra units and that will cover Carthage adequately.

If the sizes are OK then I will just grab Warmodelling's FOG Starter for Republican Romans. It pretty much covers everything else needed. Some units, such as the Numidian cavalry, will do double duty on both sides.

Will probably swab the rear of the bases with the appropriate battle dice colour for low-key identification.

Aaron, what manufacturer did you use for your Carthaginian chariots?

ED, Carthaginian chariots are these fellows here:

link

Scythed chariots (as in the second picture) are these ones:

link

Yep – good idea to start out with a stand per unit and build up as the desire takes you. Good luck :)

Cheers, mate

Hijacking the thread a bit, but…

I've been thinking of doing this too – but size constraints prevent any board over 4 ft – so no Hotz mats or Kallistra. I'll have to make my own board. On another thread a poster mentioned using offset squares instead of hexes, as it was easier to mark out accurately. In my mind I can't see any problems with this re. games mechanics – but does anyone know if this could compromise any aspect of C&C?

The troop breakdowns above are also very useful to me. Thanks!

Hobhood – offset squares should be perfectly fine.

I used a 4" Litko stencil to make this Epic Ancients mat. It's 8 foot 8 inches on the long dimension:

They make smaller stencils, as well.

The units are card stock stand ups I downloaded from the Junior General website, did some photo manipulation on and printed.

I'm slowly getting 6mm figures together for proper miniatures games. The units are 8 to 24 figures per base, depending on unit type.

Here's a standard game mat made using the same stencil and with 6mm figures:

The effect is rather pleasing. I'm further working on a new mat that only has the corners of the hexes indicated, making them less noticeable.

Nice work, Jay. I really like the cardboard figs with that hex mat.�@Great job!

Thanks, Temp. I wanted to run the game and decided to do it on short notice. I used color coding labels on the bases to indicate troop type at a glance. Red for heavies, blue for medium, and green for light. Blue with yellow was warrior. Green with yellow was auxilia.

As one can see here:

It looks much better with proper 6mm figures.

To wit:

Some day, I'll have enough figures painted to do Epic Ancients games. Some day.