"Should metal miniatures be tournament legal in GW" Topic

Should metal miniatures be tournament legal in Games Workshop official tournaments and events? I would think not. Games Workshop no longer produces these figures and so they are no longer part of the Games Workshop Hobby. Players of collectable card games are not permitted to use retired cards in official tournament play, so why should retired figures be usable competitively?

Metal figures have been pirated in the past and sold by recasters. Using Finecast models or plastic figures ensures that recast figures are not entered into a tournament. I would think that recast models, being cheaper, would give a player using them an unfair advantage over a player using official Games Workshop models because he would have paid less than the fair market price for his army.

How does plastic ensure no recasts – I can copy with resin.

I hope you enjoy a spirited debate ;)

Games Workshop can set any policy they like for tournaments they run, or those run in their stores. I doubt highly that the community at large will stand behind a ruling such as this for many reasons.

1) Prove to me my expertly painted model is metal and not weighted down without damaging it in any way. It can be done, but judges don't have time to go around with gram scales seeing how much your Pontifex Crocidilus special character has porked up.

2) Some of the same sculpts that existed in metal now exist in resin.

3) Resin can be pirated and recast as well, and in some cases more easily than with metal.

If the name of the game is making sure that you and I both paid the same amount for the same army, then ideas like this support that spirit… Unfortunately the second anyone gets a discount for any reason, or figures out how to pour their own resin, the price of chasing down such villainy will prove greater than the fairness protected.

Is OP trolling? The entire question is moot because GW doesn't do official tournaments any longer, and any participant in the "Games Workshop Hobby" knows this.

Additionally, they will never be banned at stores because many players still use old armies (such as Squats as "counts as" Imperial Guard) and many GW stores still let people play specialist games, and there was never a finecast Blood Bowl figure made.

This seems rather silly to me. I have been playing since Warhammer 5th edition and 40K since 2nd edition. I've paid my money to GW for official models. Saying that they are not table worthy since you assume that the metals in my army recasts and thus I have cheated you of a proper game experience and GW of cash seems a bit disingenuous. As long as they models are armed correctly and painted nicely does anything else matter?

Really no more official tournaments?

Not for several years.

OP is baiting here, no doubt as a segue into how much GW sucks…

Damon.

My humble apologies Judge Doug, having been out of the Games Workshop Hobby for roughly eight years I did not know that official tournaments went the way of free love and metal miniatures. I might be tempted to argue that the twenty years of previous patronage to the cult of Nottingham had some merit except that my knowledge appears as out of date as the painted Eldar and Skaven that lurk in my storage closet.

GW's policy on out-of-production miniatures has varied over the years, but my belief is that I an use any Citadel Miniature I like – from the mid-80s to the present day – in official events. There are still official events, but they're only held at Warhammer World, to my knowledge.

Yea this seems a red herring to me. When GW did hold grand tournaments and in store tourneys I only had one case where a very young employee attempted to disqualify me for running a game with my very old first production Chaos Warriors. Fortunately there was an older store clerk that was well versed in the history of Citadel miniatures and corrected the young man's error.

As to comparing older edition CCG items to older or OOP miniatures, I find that entire idea absurd and irrelevant. It is like comparing apples to hamburgers.

whitemanticore, I am not comparing OOP miniatures to CCGs. I am comparing Warhammer and Warhammer 40K to CCGs. Consider The Sword and the Flame, how many times during the same time period have new versions of GW's miniatures games been re released? Have these releases been to improve the game? Few fans seem to agree on which versions were better. Warhammer and 40K have more in common with Heroclix and Magic the Gathering as far as constant rules revisions. CCGs and CMGs have a problem with power creep as do GW games.

Now consider the cost of individual models. Are they priced by the materials used in construction or by power level in the game? Look at after market sales of cards and prepainted plastic minis. The more powerful they are in game terms the more expensive they are.

The question is "Should metal miniatures be tournament legal in GW?" The answer is "Sure, why not?"

Had the question been "Would metal miniatures be tournament legal in GW?" for the reasons you mentioned, provided that GW still runs official tournaments (hypothetically speaking), the answer is "Probably" because (a) It's too much trouble 'proving' that the metal figs are recasts and (b) GW wouldn't force people to switch over from metals to plastics or Finecast resin because they're not evil like BF.

There you go. Just keep in mind that I didn't start this.

@Parzival: Love that gif, pardon me while I steal it!

Parzival: Love it!!!

Right on Parzival!!! I wonder how many DHings will happen when this thread explodes?

GW doesn't make any metal now? If so, it shows just how far away from gw stuff I have gone. I certainly dont want a load of easily breakable plastic stuff. As for what they allow in tournaments, its GW you can be sure that whatever you want to do they will you off somehow. Its what they do.

At the risk of getting involved in a conversation started by someone tired of goats trip-trapping over his bridge…

Games Workshop no longer produces [metal miniatures]

Wrong, they still make metal models. Not everything has been transitioned over to Finecast, and a lot probably won't be in the near future.

I also worry out of which hole the OP pulled the idea that someone has an unfair advantage if their army was cheaper in some way.

any GW mini made at any time should be used.

How does plastic ensure no recasts – I can copy with resin. and I can do a much better job of it then GW does.

As I understand it, ALL figures produced by GW in the past are "tournament legal".
Even rogue Trader miniatures are legal. And the famous "beaky" space Marines!

"whitemanticore, I am not comparing OOP miniatures to CCGs. I am comparing Warhammer and Warhammer 40K to CCGs."

Um…beg to differ here mate. You said in your opening post,"Players of collectable card games are not permitted to use retired cards in official tournament play, so why should retired figures be usable competitively?"

Based upon your own words I would say you are clearly comparing OOP minis and so called retired collectable cards used in tournament games. Does anyone else think I am interpreting this incorrectly?

"Consider The Sword and the Flame, how many times during the same time period have new versions of GW's miniatures games been re released? Have these releases been to improve the game? Few fans seem to agree on which versions were better. Warhammer and 40K have more in common with Heroclix and Magic the Gathering as far as constant rules revisions. CCGs and CMGs have a problem with power creep as do GW games."

Your original statement did not make any mention of the different editions of Warhammer and 40K. Your statement clearly focused on older, specifically metal miniatures, while making an incorrect pronouncement that GW no longer produced metal figures. Therefore, the context of your statement is drawing a comparison between older, for example, Magic the Gathering cards, and earlier produced Citadel miniatures. The two are simply not the same by any stretch. Now if you were comparing say, the collectible Hero and Horror Click figures you might have a basis of argument that could be supported.

"Now consider the cost of individual models. Are they priced by the materials used in construction or by power level in the game? Look at after market sales of cards and pre-painted plastic minis. The more powerful they are in game terms the more expensive they are."

This last statement has nothing to do with your initial premise. The cost/value of GW figures are based upon a wider range of factors. Very few GW figures are driven by a scarcity dynamic other than older OOP figures that might be harder to find because they are scarce because they have disappeared off the market due to being lost by the original collector, thrown away, or there just were not that many made to begin with. The demand for such figures would not necessarily be to any power value of the miniature. More likely nostalgia dictates the value instead of any intentional artificial production limitations.

We should ask GW Fulchester for an official ruling.
;0)

Just wait until GW get a friendly court ruling that lets them put ALL your figures on an annual license, just as the various software companies are doing (Adobe, Microsoft) so you will have to pay them an annual fee to keep your figures or prove that you have destroyed them in an approved manner and be unable to transfer ownership.

bsrlee – quit giving them ideas !!!!!

Wrong, they still make metal models. Not everything has been transitioned over to Finecast, and a lot probably won't be in the near future.

Word 'on the street' is that they are no longer making metal models and are simply selling off what stock they have left.

Word around Nottingham is very different…

The point is further mooted by GW seemingly closing down all their larger stores in favor of the 2-man shops.

No place to hold any gaming.

Wyatt

I will play with whatever models I want.

Having read through this entire post, I knew I was standing near a bridge…what's underneath it?

The first post reads like a troll, but I'll bite anyway.

Sir Walter Rlyeh, I think you are wrong on nearly every point. Here's why.

1) GW has always allowed the use of any of their miniatures in tournament play as long as the mininiature is still included in the appropriate codex.

2) GW has never made any mention of these no longer being part of the GW hobby. GW has never called them "retired" as it relates to tournaments. As mentioned above, they have a couple decades of actually saying the opposite in official literature.

3) Resin can also be used to pirate plastic and resin miniatures, so pirate-ability is not cured by disallowing metal.

4) Cheaper miniatures do not give a player a competitive advantage, merely a financial one. We don't disallow the use of miniatures, gifted, purchased used or bought at a discount, so your financial argument makes no sense either.

5) In the USA, this is mostly moot anyway as GW has pulled nearly/entirely out of the tournament scene. It is almost entirely run independently with groups like BolS and Adepticon and others running the largest and most popular tournaments. Interestingly, many of these have even more relaxed miniature requirements, allowing alternate (other brand) models if the size matches and WYSIWYG is adhered to in armor and weapons.

The fact that there is someone asking a question like this, in (what appears to be) all seriousness, simply ads more cement to my decision to not play GW's products anymore. I'm using my miniatures to play Kings of War, and encouraging the other members of my club to do the same. IMHO, it's a more tactical game, far harder to win in the "purchase models phase" :)
I just hope Mantic keeps their current "customers first" business model up :)

Require players to show their receipts before entry into tournament…? That is more in keeping with the true spirit of the 'Games Workshop Hobby'… maybe players that paid more for their figures should get a special bonus to their hit-rolls or something… Or better yet, players could just pay cash at the door for 'special rules vouchers'… :)

Nice one billthecat – I can hear the sound of GW executives scribbling furiously, as they get ideas :)

IIRC the cardboard stand-up ork dreadnought from the 40k 2e box set is still legal, although using its 2D nature to conceal it behind a tree might be frowned upon.

They should absolutely ban metal. The last few times I've been in GW stores the music has been terrible.

Entweasel,
There are plenty of reasons not to support GW, but the OP's suggestions are not amont them. GW's official positions disagree with him on almost every point.