"X Wing. A great game but....." Topic

I woundn't enter another tournament.

I entered my first and last X Wing tournament at Sheffield's Patriot Games store and didn't enjoy it. Don't get me wrong the store staff were friendly and the people myself and the rest of us York gamers talked to and played against were all a pleasure to meet but I don't see these as a tournament set.

I looked around the room and saw a lot of the same build; a souped up Millenium Falcon with two escorts. The Falcon was normally crewed by Han Solo and a gunner. For those of you who don't play the game that means Han fires, if he doesn't like his dice result he picks up all his dice and re rolls them. If he misses the gunner then has a shot, if that isn't satisfactory Han can re roll the gunner's shot. Up to four attempts at getting a good hit result, not quite one shot, one kill but as near as you can get without using Luke Skywalker as the gunner and he's even better!!! The Millenium Falcon doesn't evade so well but it's shielded to the max, its escorting X Wings, Y Wings or A Wings are armoured too and shooting the Falcon with my TIE fighters was like trying to sink the Bismark with a pop gun. By the time you've got through his shields and started to chip away at his hull he has blasted your ships from space in short order with his mega re rolls. TIE sheltering behind an asteroid? No problem to him, he just picks another target, of course as he fires 360 degrees there's no escape.

I spent a lot of time playing against this combo and lost every time. In the end I was frustrated, bored and had lost all interest in tournament play. Sure I could've built a squadron to take on the Falcon but surely my TIEs led by Darth should have SOME chance?! Repeatedly playing a game which I have almost zero chance of winning isn't my idea of a good time.

I asked the organiser why this combination seemed to be everywhere I turned and was told that most players had brought it as it was a "meta build" and they "wanted to get their money's worth out of the day". As a historical gamer I had to ask what a meta build was but now I know I can see why so many people took it.

I don't think it breaks the game, TIEs against the Falcon and escorts can win scenarios and may even do better in tournament type games where time isn't a factor but in a game of short duration played to get a finish they seem to be little better than cannon fodder against this seemingly ever present uber build.

I also think that Rebels against Rebels and Imperials against Imperials looks a little odd and kind of stretches credulity a bit, if that's the right phrase to use for what is a fictional conflict.

I'll still play the game amongst friends, I've invested a lot into it but I won't be entering another tournament.

And that's why I don't play in tournaments like this.

agreed. i love x-wing but am no fan of any tourament style game. min-maxed army lists are boring and tedious in my opinion. and as much as i love the falcon, it is a bit cheesy. maybe bobba fett, or the soon to be released tie bomber, can pack enough firepower to give it a headache.

i have not played enough x-wing yet have any real insight though.

Can you ram enemy ships? if so what's the damage like?

I just played a tournament and had a great time. Second round I took out Han to xwings. I was flying 2 xwings and a ywing. I did find one set up a little on the cheesy side and that was 3 firesprays. That is a lot to chew through. I took out one, but my opponent whittled me away over the hour. Ah well!

Like all games, you can play to win, or play to have fun. Pick one. Naturally 'tournaments' are all about winning (as is most FLGS play)… not my cup o' tea either…

I suppose this mentality might work for chess or parchisi or poker… not so much games of simulation/ storytelling/ imagination.

Cough it up as a learning experience :)

Can you ram enemy ships? if so what's the damage like?

No you can't ram enemy ships.

Part of this is a side effect of the limited number of models currently out. Once wave 3 and beyond are out the tournament scene should be more dynamic (if FFG has done their job right).

-Will

Nope can not ram or Kamikaze attack. Not allowed in the rules. Yes scenario based games are way more my cup of tea, but that said I still read all the tactics and builds on the fan sites to better understand how some ships perform. Now I am pretty much to the point where I am GMing games and not playing much at all.

VR
James Mattes

I've been enjoying the game very much for both casual play and tournaments.

Some areas get into a 'group think' that one sort of build is the best, and you see a lot of that build there. That doesn't mean it is 'the' best build, or even that there is a 'best' build.

Here in New England, we've been seeing a lot of variety at the tournaments.
For building a tournament list, and even more importantly, learning how to best fly your list, you do need to be able to take on both extremes of the spectrum.

You need to be able to take on 1-2 Falcons, and you need to be able to take on 5-7 TIEs. If you can take on both of those, then you can deal with everything inbetween as well. There are any number of lists that can do this. For me, what the fun challenge is, is finding the best list that fits my flying style, and then learning how to fly that list to its best advantage against a variety of opponents.

I won't fly a Falcon in tournament play, just because I find them boring to fly. Although I do find Firesprays with their big blind spots and the challenge of flying a formation of big ships to be fun for me -- 3 Bounty Hunters is a very viable squad if you get the knack for it.

But personally, what I find most enjoyable is flying a TIE swarm. And there is great joy in shooting down all the big ships with them ^,^

My list this season has been:
Howlrunner + Stealth
2x (Alpha Squadron Interceptors + Stealth)
3x Academy Pilot TIEs.

Took 3rd place in Central Mass (19 entrants, 75 min. rounds), 1st place in Connecticut (16 entrants, 60 min. rounds). On to Maine next week.

The big tournament at FFG HQ on May the 4th (44 entrants), went to a 7 TIE swarm:
Howlrunner + Stealth
Backstabber
3x Obsidian
2x Academy

These lists can eat big ships for breakfast. Really -- 1st round of the Central Mass tourney I took down 2 YTs without losing a single ship, and I hadn't even had my 2nd cup of coffee yet! The skill part is that you have to fly in such a way most or all of your ships are firing at one target, all while staying out of range of other enemy. And, flying in such a way that you can maintain concentrated fire for several turns in a row and not just have 1 good pass and then be in bad position. Cycle damaged ships to the rear of the pack or out far to the flanks. It takes practice. Flying straight towards the enemy is not how to do it.

Concentrated fire from a TIE swarm will kill a Falcon in 2-3 turns. Kill the Falcon first while you're still at full strength. Then go for the support ships. Against 2 Falcons, kill one while keeping the 2nd out of range from shooting at you until you're ready to turn on it.

After I swing around to make the initial attack approach I want, my first round of fire typically has the 3 Academies at regular range, the Squints and Howlrunner at long range. That's 14 attack dice, with up to 5 blank results being rerolled thanks to Howlrunner. Any of the 5 pilot skill 1 ships that haven't used their focus in defense before they fire still have their focus left to apply as well. The ships with Stealth *always* save their focus for defense and only use it on attack if there is no enemy left to fire at them. That level of concentrated firepower makes Falcons very unhappy.

Personally, I prefer the nimbleness of TIEs, but for folks who prefer Rebels -- 4x (Rookie X-Wing + Shield Upgrade) is a good all-purpose fighter flight too with a solid 12 die opening attack and good staying power.

Many other lists are quite competitive too. But it's most important to match a list to how you fly.

I've also started trying out 4x (Gold Squadron Y-Wing + Ion Cannon Turret + R2). It's surprisingly strong and agile. Only tried it against a few lists so far, so can't yet say if it would be a top contender for me.

If everyone in your neighborhood is flying Falcon + Support lists, find your best hunting list to take that on and go to town!

Don't like tournaments. I just don't feel the need. I game for fun, not to compete.

Just out of curiosity what was your build? It is not an unbeatable squad. My two TIE advanced and 2 TIE interceptors can take out his shield and throw on a couple points of damage after 1 turn. You just have to concentrate your fire. This tends to put them off their game plan as they have sunk a lot of points into that ship and will start to worry it is about to get destroyed.

You need to construct a list that is capable of taking on both the Han build and the TIE swarm and you will be all set (assuming you have basic maneuvering down).

MiniMo I am glad you are getting a lot out of tournaments and thanks for the tactical advice. Tournaments may not be for me but if others are enjoying them I think that's great.

Nochules I took this which won one game against an Imperial build of TIE Interceptors but otherwise got repeatedly defeated by the Falcon combo. Though I got close in one game it beat me every time.

Darth Vader
Cluster Missiles, Marksmanship 36 pts

Mauler Mithel 17 pts

Backstabber 16 pts

Dark Curse 16 pts

Black Squadron Pilot
Determination 15 pts

The Falcon with its many re rolls just destroyed them one by one. I didn't have enough firepower to destroy it and of course its escorts were firing at me too. He couldn't use the re rolls against Dark Curse but that didn't help me very much.

The Milleniums do have an advantage, and not just because they are built like brick Deathstars. It's almost impossible to keep them from shooting at you with their 360 degree arc of fire, and because you measure from the edge of the ships base, the big ships are usually able to shoot around intervening asteroids. In the tourney I played in the two tops places were Millenium builds.

I ran a four Y-Wing, Ion Cannon flight which was a lot of fun.

The falcon builds at the regionals at TTN (18 players) only did middling places. Top places went to tie swarms with an xwing build coming second. Concentrate fire on the falcon and it goes down. My falcon took 2 rounds of fire from an interceptor swarm 30 shots over 2 turns ate the 13 hits I had fairly easily.

Tom, checking for obstacles is always measured closest point to closest point (within firing arc) on the bases, so the big ships only get an advantage when the bases are absolutely parallel to each other. Most of the time, you're measuring corner to corner.

Alan, that list would have been hard to win with even before big ships came along. You did well taking down another TIE list. 5 ship TIE lists heavy on named pilots are inherently risky. Lots of fun abilities, but not a lot of consistent firepower, and not much capability to absorb damage. Mixing in Interceptors and/or Stealth makes 5 Imperials more viable now, bringing in more firepower and defense.

--Mo

So what do you get for winning or participating in a tournament? If you get nothing, I don't see the point. My only experience is with Wizkids tournaments, where you get limited edition figs or cards, often for just playing if the group is small. My son and I tired of the meta build stuff, so we quit the scene.

I don't see the point in an x-wing tournament with so few choices available and no payouts.

Frankly, if they start adding LE prizes (like WizKids), then broken combos will be even more common.

I remember the days of Mechwarrior when powergamers were racing from venue to venue on tournament day, using every broken combo in the book to win multiple copies of the LE piece, for the unapologetic purpose of ebaying all but 1.

For the regional tournaments, the winner gets a trophy, and a ticket for free entry into the World Championships in Nov, including a bye in the first round and a free T-shirt. A stack of smaller prizes, 2 dice pouches, 8 sets of (10) acrylic focus tokens, and 16 patches.

The UK National Championship was also offering free flight and hotel to the World Championship. I don't know if other Nationals are offering that or not. The US one will be at GenCon.

The Kessel Run tournaments last year gave out pre-porduction models of the Wave 2 expansions. So LE for a limited time only for a few months before everyone could buy them.

The Kessel Run tournaments last year gave out pre-porduction models of the Wave 2 expansions. So LE for a limited time only for a few months before everyone could buy them.

True, but like you say, everyone who wanted one could get them eventually (stocking issues aside).

In Mechwarrior, the LE prizes became insanely expensive to acquire… and one or two were very powerful pieces, which put the power-gamers at an even greater advantage.

But while the prizes are nice, and I quite like having the patches on my X-Wing game bag, I'd still enjoy travelling to play in the tournaments.

And while I didn't think I'd go to Minnesota for the World Championships if I won a regional, now that I actually have a free ticket taunting me, I'm starting to calculate my flight miles and hotel points…

So far, I've been meeting lots of nice people who also enjoy playing the game. It's great getting to see the other players again who are also travelling the circuit. I really enjoy a day of playing against so many new opponents, it's a much different challenge than playing against the regular (and smaller) crew at my local shop. Win or lose, I really enjoy the challenge of trying to play at my best against many different players and their different lists,

Alan, that list would have been hard to win with even before big ships came along. You did well taking down another TIE list. 5 ship TIE lists heavy on named pilots are inherently risky. Lots of fun abilities, but not a lot of consistent firepower, and not much capability to absorb damage. Mixing in Interceptors and/or Stealth makes 5 Imperials more viable now, bringing in more firepower and defense.

--Mo

I went with what I had Mo. At the time I had neither of the big ships and only one TIE Interceptor. Since then I have bought the Millenium Falcon and two more Interceptors but that still wouldn't give me access to the Stealth card which comes with the Firespray. I won't be buying the Firespray, I don't like the model and I'm not spending £24.99 GBP plus postage just to get my hands on a piece of cardboard which I can borrow for friendly games anyway. It's almost impossible to buy the smaller wave 2 ships here in the UK at reasonable prices now, it reminds me of the stock problems that used to afflict the dice for Saga the popular Dark Age skirmish rules, another really enjoyable game which actually is good fun to play in tournaments. That resolved itself as I am sure the X Wing ship situation will.

As for the tournament scene, I think playing against the same combo repeatedly simply bored me. Sheffield isn't so far from York but then again it isn't just down the road either and it's a long way to go to play the same unwinnable game again and again. I will still continue to play in friendly games though, despite my reservations about tournament play I believe X Wing is an excellent game.

Oh man, I guess I need to read my rulebook again. I thought we were all playing a friendly game. Everybody was helping each other with the rules and all that. Guess not all of us were playing friendly. And this was the guy who went on to win the tournament.

I kept positioning a TIE to control the YT's movement so that my others can attack from the rear. Its such a big fish that its easy to get in its way and restrict it, especially with a "higher skilled pilot" like Han or Chewie because they would move after I did.

Alan, now that you have 2 Interceptors in the mix, you can build some strong lists without Stealth.

I like using Stealth, but I give up a lot of maneuverability to keep them backed up with focus. Once and if the stealth goes down, then I start using the boost actions. But, they work just fine with other options. And Turr and Soontir are just a lot of fun to fly!

I do see your point about boredom flying against the same build constantly. I'm fortunate not to face that here. Maybe one of the Sheffield regulars could let you know if their crowd has branched out into more variety?

Tom, I'd give benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake. The rules are short and simple, but it's surprising the number of times players miss little nuances. I've found that most often happens regarding various details regarding asteroids, and folks don't catch the mistake til someone else points it out. We had a games day last week with 2 folks who play each other all the time and just they'd not been taking damage when the movement template crossed the asteroid.

I think the thing about the YT-1300 builds is that they are very forgiving to new players. If you make a bad maneuver you can still shoot since you have 360 arc. If you get in a tough spot you have tons of shields and hull points to survive. So you can get to above average quickly and if you are mostly playing a bunch of people that are also fairly new to the game you can clean up. However, the maximum potential is not as high as some of the other lists that require actual coordinated maneuvers to maximize fields of fire and the like. I think once more people get to the advanced skills level there will be much more variety in the lists.

FFG forum report from the 3rd place player at one of the UK Regionals, didn't specify which location:

1st: 7 TIEs
2nd: Wedge, Biggs, Rookie X-Wing, Gold Sqd. Y-WIng
3rd: Han, 2 Gold Sqd.

link

I will go to my grave proclaiming this as I have proclaimed it my entire gaming life:

Point-based tournaments are a tasteless joke: A waste of time, a meaningless insult to player skill and worthless in every way.

"Carthago delenda est."

That is all…

I've actually had a lot of fun playing in tournaments both historical ie Saga where contemporary warbands meet, semi historical Impetus tournaments where you fight against armies of roughly the same era who your army may or may not have met and open Impetus and before that FoG (yawn!) and before that DBX and WRG 6th edition tournaments where your army can come up against anybody. I'd rather play historical games but there's only so many times you want to refight Agincourt!

I just don't think every rule set is suitable for tournaments and a set where there are only two sides and so you have a 50.50 chance of fighting the same side comes into that category in my view. It doesn't make the rules rubbish, far from it, X Wing is a great game, right up there with Saga for fun and excitement for me. My friend Neil disagrees with my opinion of X Wing tourneys, he wants to play in them and has asked me to be an opponent he can practice on. Great! More games of X Wing can only be a good thing, I now even have a TIE Interceptor squadron than can damage the Millenium Falcon so I'll be more of a match for him but I don't think the X Wing tournament scene is for me.