"Accuracy of Tank Rounds w/o Tracers" Topic

We know tracers help the tank gunner correct the shot if it misses. But many rounds did not have tracers. Some early AP rounds didn't have tracers. Most HE rounds don't seem to have tracers, yet these can be direct fired as well. I guess the explosion does indicate where the HE projectile hit so a tracer isn't needed.

How should rules handle tank and AT guns firing projectiles without tracers to correct aim?

I thought the tracer rounds were in the co-axial MG?

A number of AP projectiles seem to combine the base fuse with a tracer element. HE have nose fuse so no combined element.

I suppose one of the variables also to be considered here would then have to be the obscuration effects of muzzle blast. That would certainly be more critical where the commander or gunner is trying to follow a tracer.

Add one variable and then have to consider another.

Much as I like to think of making as granular a set of rules as I can to reflect the actual conditions, it becomes a matter of where you stop.

The 1970s TANK GUNNAry manual that we used in the USA Army stated in the introduction:
In 1944 at a range of 500 yards firing at a STATIONARY target, it took 13 rounds!! for a firing tank to have a 50% chance to hit the target!.

On the M551, We still used in the 1970s the same sight set up that they used in 1944. We simply called it the V sight. And yes a first round hit was a very hard acheivement and even a second or third round hit was regarded as good.

Just as with the poor actual rate of fire compared to hits on a target for an infantryman. The tank had the same issue. The problem with gaming and actual rates of rounds fired and target hits, the gamer would get frustrated with the very low chance to hit a target.

no bonus for the 2nd shot at the same non-moving target as long as you also do not move.

What I gather is that in WWII the gunner and commander would make corrections on where the round passed by the target. Except for 17pdr APDS. For that they were told to not adjust their aim.

I would not give a bonus for a second or subsequent shot for rounds without tracers.

Side note is that the Germans captured a large number of Polish 75mm AP rounds. These did not have tracers. The reports from Russia were there using these rounds very large number of shots were required to hit enemy tanks.

Rudy the V site is a choke site when the target touches both side of the lines that is the range. Tim is right on with short rounds are correctable with adjusting aim (burst on target, B.O.T.) over shoot and you have no frame of reference. Snow is actually easier to adjust short rounds as you can see the black dot left in the snow where the round hit.

The V 'choke' sight was easy to use if both you and the target are stationary + the target is runningeither straight at you or parrell to you. If the target is moving especially at an angle, the ability to hit the target becomes low.

I found Tim's comments causing me to have flashback to many a cold night on the gunnery range. LOL! Tim is correct about the ability to adjust short rounds is the target is stationary. A moving target requires a new sight set up with each shot.

Against a moving target I saw a number of gunners go for a low shot hoping for a near miss if not a miss thus knocking of the track and making the next shot a stationary target.

Tim mentioned the type of rounds he had fired. The SABOT raound for tanks in 3/10 Cav (Tnk BN) were especially accurate. However my M551s (never call them tanks) in 1/9th Cav (Cav Sqrn) fired a different round than the M60A1s. We did not have the choice between HEAT, SABOT and HEP. All we had in the main gun rounds were (Anti-personnel beehive rounds, Shillegh (SP) missles and HEP. The gun was especially large to handle the missle so we fired a 152mm warhead. As such it was like firing a large artillery cannon directly at the target. The blast effect area was wuite significant. The recoil was such that we could never fire the main gun on the move or even more than a 60 degree angle to the side.

you lifted up the Sheridan onto it's 3rd set of road wheels. The 105mm was pretty noise in the turret. I can't imagine what it was like in your little track. still you didn't have to deal with the shell casing bouncing around. just you bouncing around.

Correct marcus. You also would damage much of the missle firing system with the firing of the main gun as a gun. The recoil for the caseless shell was also heavy. I had many casualties from gunnery. These included TCs being thrown clear when the cupolas would break off due to age, drivers having their ear drums burst due to the short barrel exploding right above their head. One quick fire broke every bone in a visiting officer's hand when it cooked off unexpectedly due to the tube being already too hot when it was loaded.

we had a Sheridan tanker who said he hated Gunnery but what really scared him is when somebody wanted to have them swim across water . that's why he loved M60A3. nobody was going to try and make them swim

Sorry for the tangent but

We actually swam our entire Cavalry Sqyadron in one excercise. It included various models of the M113s (TOWs, infnatry scouts, and mortars), M551s and M577s. We attached empty milk jugs tied to each track with a long rope, so it would rise to the top for easy recovery.

Another Troop lost a few tracks but our Troop did not. To me since all personnel were in open turrets so they could evacuate quickly, the most dangerous position was that of the driver.

Well to answer Mobius question the only tracer I ever noticed was from over rounds. on target was a flash and short was a bunch of dirt. Short rounds should cause a moral roll from the target. and a minor + modifier for the next round. I always loved those seasoned tankers from the 60's they always had great war stories and treated us newbies pretty good. they are the best the army had.