"Irish soldiers in WW2 - BBC mess it up" Topic

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5,000?

50,000 is the accepted figure

Are you mixing up the number of Irish who fought in the British forces, with the number who actually *deserted* to do so? (Which is what this is about.)

De Valera's blacklist of deserters had just under 5,000 names on it, (4983 from a quick search) so the BBC figure looks right to me.

Yup… BBC is correct.

4,983 people deserted from the Defence Forces to fight in Allied armies.

Legislation was done last year. In fact, its been pushed through quite fast for such a piece of legislation, I know plenty waiting several years to go through… But given the few living remaining 'veterans', around a 100, time was of the essence.

The Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity Bill) 2012 is going through the Dáil today.

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My wife's Great-Uncle was one of them.

Yes you are confusing it, Irish who deserted are under 5000. Irish who fought in WW2 but did not desert are a much greater number including my uncle.

I still have his RN multi purpose knife and a load of photos. God rest his soul.

He often said there were no atheists when the shells were flying.

'Twould make you think as they say.

good point – I have falsely traduced the BBC (though they could have mentioned the overall total, to put the 5,000 in context for all the everyone hates us types)

Great clip –
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22441505
sad that some people in Ireland were so small minded as to condemn someone who fought against an evil that threatened everyone ultimately – and yet some of them supported the I Ran Away with its links to the Nazis – of course 'Englands misfortune' and all that, but given that post war people even in Eire would have known what the Nazi and Japanese regimes were like, then continuing to have taken such an attitude was actually pretty appalling.

"My enemy's enemy must be my friend" taken to its illogical conclusion….

Sadly you mistake events.

My RN uncle remained an Irish Republican till his dying day. He was not keen on fascism and took the opportunity to fight it and never regretted it.

It was not an uncommon attitude then and while my family tended to like English people up too and including marriage they had no illusions about the British Empire. Certainly the older generation had fought against it.

But that's people for you, they respond to the complexities of the day as best they can.

As we all do I suppose.

Being an ignorant Yank of 100% Irish descent with a rather vague sense of "what really went on", I respected de Valera until I found out that he sent condolences to the German people on the death of Hitler.
I then changed my mind.

De valera was scum

Dev was a very complex character.His stance of neutrality, was only a reflection of the popular will at the time.To put it simply, the Irish people felt they were conned by the British in WW1 and they were'nt going to be caught again.Dev walked a tightrope in WW2, maintaining an outward strict neutrality while helping the Allies on the quiet.
I dont believe he had anything directly to do with the assassination of M Collins, but he had a lot to do with starting the Civil War.
I have never heard the question asked about his trip to the USA 1919-1920, where he collected 5.5 million dollars for the war at home.Where did the money go ? The continent of Europe was awash with weapons, but the IRA was very poorly equipped.

My RN uncle remained an Irish Republican till his dying day. He was not keen on fascism and took the opportunity to fight it and never regretted it.
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thats admirable – that some Irish people were so small minded as to call people names who had fought fascism is what is pathetic. Irish people may have thought that we conned them in WW1 and that might have excused De Valera's and their attitude at the time, but after the wars end of course what is inexcusable is that even in the light of Auschwitz they still treated people who had joined the Crown forces like that.

What makes this worse, is that the officers that deserted were not punished, just the other ranks.
I read that somewhere, I hope that turns out to be not true.

I've always lumped DeValera into the same category as Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Franco…et al.

I don't think Ireland's internment camps were in the same league as Stalin's; not too many pub visits for gulag inmates

"I don't think Ireland's internment camps were in the same league as Stalin's; not too many pub visits for gulag inmates"

…..but having married into an Irish family, I would wager the food in the gulags was better!

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macconermaoile wrote:

To put it simply, the Irish people felt they were conned by the British in WW1 and they were'nt going to be caught again

What do you mean by "conned"? Being exempted from conscription wasn't a good enough deal during a World War?

All the best,

John.

John,
Please let us not go through the whole Home Rule saga, the Curragh Mutiny ect, as we could type for weeks.!!

"Being exempted from conscription wasn't a good enough deal"

The only reason for that was a fear that rebellion would occur, if it was implemented. As it so happened, it did anyway.