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"English language sources for the Eastern Renaisance?" Topic


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Berlichtingen01 May 2013 6:24 a.m. PST

With By Fire and Sword on its way, I'm looking for some decent reading material for the wars the game covers, as well as any decent painting guides

bogdanwaz01 May 2013 7:10 a.m. PST

Although it might be a bit hard to get these days, The Northern Wars by Robert Frost is an excellent one volume book on the wars and army development in various states around the Baltic from the mid-16th to the early 18th centuries.

Balin Shortstuff01 May 2013 7:23 a.m. PST
badger2201 May 2013 3:44 p.m. PST

They are thin o the ground. I have Frosts book, two Ospreys on the Polish Army and one Osprey on the Polish winged Hussars. And that is all i could find. There is probably something on the Swedish army somewhere, but hAVE NOT FOUND IT YET. tHERE ARE A NUMBER OF SOURCES ON THE WEB BUT MOST OF THOSE WOULD ONLY BE A FEW PAGES OF PRINT.

dISAPOINTING TO ME, BUT MAYBE THIS WILL GENERATE ENOUGH INTEREST THAT MORE STUFF WILL GET DONE, OR AT LEAST GET TRANSLATED.

oWEN

Daniel S02 May 2013 3:01 p.m. PST

There isn't much available in English which is hardly surprising given that this was a war with next to no English participation. (Much like you won't find a wealth of books about the ECW in Polish or Swedish.) And of course there is the ever present language barrier.

Robert Frost's has published two books about the period
After the deluge : Poland-Lithuania and the Second Northern War, 1655-1660 (1993)
and
The Northern wars : war, state and society in northeastern Europe, 1558-1721 (2000)

Neither is particularly good due to Frost strong pro-Polish bias which at times has him resorting to using methods such as cherry picking, quote mining and even the wholesale invention of events to give the Poles a boost and bash western military methods in general and those dastardly Swedes in particular.

A couple of samples from the Northern Wars

"…the highly effective Swedish cavalry tactics after 1621 were based on Polish examples, although it was not until the eighteenth century that most western armies replaced their straight cavalry swords -little more than pointed clubs – with the curved Polish sabres which were far more effective as cavalry weapons."

Let's see, Swedish cavalry tactics were not based on those of the Poles, 'western' armies retained straight cavalry swords as late as WW1 and not only were 'western' swords not "pointed clubs" but highly effective weapons which were arguably more versatile due to being well suited to both cut and trust.
Some "pointed clubs"
link
link
link
A fairly basic study of the subject would have avoided these errors.

Frost describes the Swedish breakout from the Vistula-San encirlement in 1656 as follows:

"Forcing his way over the San under cover of darkness on 5-6 April he broke through the Lithuanians, who had no infantry or guns. It cost him most of his artillery and much of his baggage, together with a relief force of some 4500 cavalry and dragoons which had set off from Warsaw under Margrave Frederick of Baden (…)"

Oddly this supposed loss of Swedish artillery and baggage has not been recorded by either Polish nor Swedish sources, indeed Jan Wimmer whose work on the war Frost's lists in his bibliography describes first how the Lithuanians delayed the Swedish building of a bridge using firepower (i.e infantry and artillery) and later how the Swedes moved off with their artillery on barges after the Lithuanians had retreated. No mention is made of the supposed Swedish losses.

In fact it was the Lithuanians, not the Swedes, who lost artillery and baggage when the camp was overrun by the Swedes after the assault across the San.

Likewise the Swedish force led by Margrave Frederick have been given a 50% increase despite Frost having access to Wimmer who quotes an accurate strenght of 2500-3000 based on Swedish primary sources.

If you can find a cheap copy of the Northern Wars it is worth picking up a flawed introduction to the wars but it is not worth paying full price for IMO.

While not focused directly on the war with the Commonwealth you can find bits and pieces of interesting information in
Brian Davies
Warfare, State and Society on the Black Sea Steppe, 1500-1700 (2007)
and Carol Steven's
Russia's Wars of Emergence 1460-1730 (2007)

There is nothing in print in English about the Swedish army during the 2nd Northern war AFAIK. I do have a post about the uniforms worn in 1655 on my blog at link
I will be posting more about the Swedish army during the Deluge now that By Fire and Sword has been translated English and my own interest in the period has returned.

rusmilhist.blogspot.se has lots of information about the Russian army in particular but also bits & pieces about other participants in the war such as the Swedes & Imperials.

Daniel S02 May 2013 4:28 p.m. PST

You also have the old "Polish Renaissance Warfare" website at link which has have a nice introduction to the wars of the period though the indepth studies are focused on the Livonian war and war with Gdansk.

You can also find a short eyewitness description of Polish, Imperial and Brandenburg troops here link

Anatoli03 May 2013 3:16 a.m. PST

@Daniel S,
LOL! That Frost dude seems to be an @ss, I hate history twisting like that. Your examples are quite baffling, I wonder how such things were allowed to pass into printed form…

badger2203 May 2013 5:14 p.m. PST

Which is why we need multiple sources for the period in English. Same with the thirty years war. There just are not enough enlish versions to compare to each other.

I am hopeing that things like By Fire and Sword will raise enough awareness of what a great period this is to game and so inspire more writting about it.

And that Daniel S will turn to a carreeer of wrting.

Owen

Berlichtingen04 May 2013 5:11 p.m. PST

Just ordered the Osprey 'Armies of Ivan the Terrible'

Bad title as it covers Ivan the Terrible up to Peter the Great, so it does cover the relevant era

Daniel S04 May 2013 10:56 p.m. PST

The title is not the only thing which is bad with that one, it is pretty poor even for an osprey. For example it contains very little information on the reformed army the Russians used in the "Deluge" period and completely leaves out some "New" formations like the Reiters. Nor color plates for the "New" troops either.

Though incomplete this is a much better source to begin with as far as the written information is concerned.
PDF link

Berlichtingen05 May 2013 4:31 a.m. PST

That looks like it has some very useful information in it. Thanks

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