"Leval's Guns at Talavera" Topic

I am re-entering Napoleonic gaming after a 22+ year hiatus and decided to start with Leval's 2d (Dutch – German) Division at Talavera. I have located most of the plates I need for the infantry, even some plates for the 2d Dutch Hussars. I have had very little luck locating color plates for the Baden, Kingdom of Holland, and Hesse-Darmsteadt Guns. I located one contemporary watercolor of a Dutch Horse Artillery gun circa 1806, which appeared a faded almost pear green. Couldn't tell if the coloring of the gun carriage was because of the intent of the artist, or the fading/age of the watercolor, etc. Any help with the correct color for any of the above mentioned contingent's gun carriages and/or caissons would be helpful.

Try this link:

link

Has all the answers you need.

Thanks, that was exactly what I needed, greatly appreciated!
Pat

Dear Sir
You might be interesting in an account of the German-Dutch Division at Talavera.
link

The French artillery colour was khaki olive as the best discription. It was 100 part yellow ochre to 1 part lampback and covered with Japan varnish (brownish varnish).

The non-French contingents were re-equipped with Gribeauval 4-pdrs. Some may have been former Spanish pieces so would still have been with deep sky blue and black metalwork.

I am not sure what the Dutch were equipped with.
Stephen

Can you tell us what size your infantry figures will be: 15mm; 18mm; 25mm; 28mm?

and what manufacturers you plan to use for these units?

The Dutch hussars would pass for French, but had pointed shabraques instead of lambs wool. I seem to recall that the Westphalian hussars were the same, and looked otherwise French.

No satisfactory Dutch infantry yet without conversion. I am considering buying some Spanish figures, then adding French shakos, moving the plumes to the left side!
Then will need to add epaulettes to the two elite companies. This is not really satisfactory, for I beleve the Dutch center companies had only one crossbelt as did Fench fusiliers.

Great figures for 2nd Nassau, but all seem to be equipped with Briish equipment for Waterloo.

French late-war – Bardin regulation – line Grenadiers or voltigeurs – convert to the Hessians (Hessen Darmstadt Erb Prinz Regiment?)if one covers the shako, and carves away the epaulettes for the center companies (leaving shoulder tabs). Gun crews would be the same, but cut way only the fringe on the epaulettes, leaving a "keyhole" looking shoulder board in dark blue, edged scarlet.

4th Baden could also be the same, blue short jacket with lapels crossed over hiding the red "plastron." Epaulettes for elites, sholder tabs for center companies. Early war Badens had unique helmet, longer-tailed habit with closed red lapels to the waist. I did them years ago using French 1809 period line grenadiers, closing the lapels, and adding a low rounded helmet with "raupe" in place of the French shako. Grenadier with red plume on the left of the helmet, green for voltigeurs.

GdeP

What rules are you going to use?

Lots of terrific information and a fair number of applicable questions:

Dr. Summerfield: Thanks so much for the information pertaining the color and characteristics of the French and non-French artillery is vastly appreciated. I "splurged" this past Christmas and purchased Digby Smith's excellent German Division in Spain book. I found that the color plates alone were well worth the price. I am envious of your close proximity to Woolrich when growing up and hope to one day make a pilgrimage there – I am happily reminded of dear Royal Artillery friends with whom I served from 10 Battery AD "Assaye" aka the Elephants from my Desert Shield and Desert Storm days.

Garde of Paris: My miniatures are 28mm; Front Rank primarily. The information you have provided is astoundingly helpful and has given me some food for thought, especially regarding the Badeners and Hesse-Darmsteadters. I have begun the long and no doubt slow process of converting some Front Rank early French Light Infantry into 2nd and 4th Regt Dutch Infantry. Of course, it was only after I received my copy of Digby Smith's book that I realized that the drooping side plumes were a gross exaggeration versus the necessary side pom-pom. Someone on one of the recent threads mentioned that Calpe Saxons are probably a more simple candidate for conversion to Kingdom of Holland troops. Serves me right for not researching better before buying.
Any recommendations for the Nassau Officer's sashes on the Front Rank Nassau Sculpts? Can I reasonably get away with painting them a gold hue or do I need to break out the dremmel for those as well?

Rallynow: I haven't thought far enough to determine a set of rules. But I am wide open to recommendations. I am actually considering solo gaming till I can locate other gamers here in Denver, CO. I have been out of the gaming scene since someone five finger discounted my 1,500 figure 25mm MiniFig collection out of military storage while I was serving in Somalia. Even then I just couldn't seem to fit gaming into my life between deployments, and single life, etc. But it's a different story now.

Thanks to all of you,

Pat

Alas the old Rotunda Museum closed to be replaced by Firepower. The museum has a fraction of the collection on display and many mistakes in identification that they are reluctant to do. The curator is one of the graduate kind so has little interest and knowledge in the subject. The librarian is very difficult to deal with and charges £10.00 GBP to visit the library for a morning and you have to know what you are looking for. There is no catalog.
Stephen

Hello, Jarhead:

link

This site shows an officer with the yellow sash, but for 1815. It also shows General Kruse with no waist sash. Frankly, I see no problem just keeping the sash. It adds color and variety.

I used a Russian 30mm Stadden Pavlovski Grenadier officer for may Baden officer, with red sash, and bicorn. My troops are converted Stadden Old Guard Grenadiers, no epaulettes for the center companies, and all closed to the waist with epoxy. The officer's small back-pack was part of the Russian figure, and stayed! "Imagi-nations" slips into many of my units!

GdeP

GdeP,

Terrific point about the empire fig weblink; upon careful review I realized that my Nassau Grenadiers would likely have been sporting Raphelms vice Colpacks. So head swaps may be in order for the Nassau Grenadiers as well as the Sappers for Talavera.

Do you know of any 28mm manufactures that have mounted French Horse Artillerists. I plan to take a stab at doing the Kingdom of Holland Horse Artillery with at very least the Battery Commander and Trumpeter mounted. I can probably convert some Perry Plastic French Hussars and place them on Front Rank light cavalry horses. But really not sure if the scales of the two manufactures are compatible. I have still had no luck identifying the proper shape of the shabraques (Pointed, squared, wool, etc.) for the KOH Horse Artillerists. I will try perusing my Elting volumes when time permits. I did find a very useful Knotel plate of the Hesse-Darmsteadt Foot Artillerists of with a fairly good view of the Limber, Gun, Officer, NCO, Artillerist, and Train Personnel. It is an 1809 plate, but probably does not reflect the campaign improvisations specific to campaigning in Spain. It's close enough for me though.

Thanks,
Pat

Most of the plates from the 1898? Knoetel 16? volume "Uniformenkunde" are on the internet. I hope I am copying here his rendition of horse and foot artillerymen under "Koenig Lustig!"

link

Here are some of the line infantry with representatives of the 2nd and 4th, who served with the German Division in Spain.

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I can't find an illustration I may have packed away of the Dutch horse artillery, looking exactly like the French in hussar dolman – no pelisses – but with the shako with number on the front, and plume or pompom on the left side. They were on off-white lambswool shabraques, scarlet sawtooth edges. The officer would have had a pointed wool shabraque, probably dark blue edged gold. The trumpeter would probably have ridden on black lambswool, scarlet sawtooth. I don't have any Perrys or Front Rank figures, so can't advise what to get. The perry hussars without pelisse would certainly make good troopers, or a trumpeter. I can only guess if an officer would have worn a pelisse, but more likely would have.

Except from new Victrix plastic 28mm figures, all my troops are converted Willy or Stadden 30mm wargame figures from the 1960 era. Stadden made marvelous horse artillery of the Imperial Guard – only the officer with Pelisse, all others in just dolman. The mounted trooper has a pointed shabraque so that would have to be carved away, so you might be best off with newer – Perry – figures. No trumpter, but soldier with linstock could easily convert – but on foot. A couple of these gunners could be converted to hussars skirmishing on foot. Currently under Tradition Scandinavia. I switched hussar heads for 3 of these to do French horse artillery gunners. They are much better figures than the pictures on the Tradition site would suggest. But big!

link

GdeP

GdeP,

The KOH horse artillery shabraque info is very helpful. I did manage to locate a Herbert Knotel KOH Trumpeter on horseback (Elting Volume IV). From the the head-on view that they offer, your shabraque details you offered are confirmed. I located a modern plate of the Baden foot artillery in the Osprey Talavera. I will keep looking for another source to confirm some additional uniform details.

Thanks again.
Pat