"The Paoli Light Infantry 'red hackle' " Topic

Dear all,
I was disappointed to see that there is apparently no contemporaneous evidence for the tradition that the 46th and 49th Regts' LI coys adopted a red cap feather after crushing Wayne's brigade at Paoli as part of the 2nd Bn LI in Sept 1777:
link

Or has anyone uncovered any better evidence for this regimental tradition?
Cheers all,
Redcoat

Who needs evidence? If you want red hackles then have them, by God!

What Giles said.

The easier for them to find you at Germantown and repay the favour…

Eric

Yep, The reverse is there is no evidence supporting against red hackles.
So, have at it.

What Giles said. "As the Colonel shall decide…"

What Eric said. Payback is a bitch.

The payback, for Wayne at least, was not Germantown but surprising and capturing the several hundred British at Stony Point and not bayoneting the lot of them.

db

It's been said many times before, but a loss of 53 killed, 113 wounded and 71 captured out of an initial rebel/patriot/American force of 2,500 is hardly a 'massacre'.

Tom McGuire's fantastic study 'Battle of Paoli' (2000) is highly recommended reading on this conflict.

That may be, but 9.5% casualties & captured is a high number for these times.

Successful use of cold steel against folks with press savvy = massacre. The Boers made a bigger deal of being caught by lancers.

That may be, but 9.5% casualties & captured is a high number for these times.

As vtsaogames implies, a 9.5% casualty rate was surely not all that unusual. What was unusual was surely that so many casualties were inflicted with the bayonet (or musket butt), given Brother Jonathan's tendency to run away as fast or faster than Thomas Lobsterback could chase him.

Funny how all the British victories were termed massacres. So what was King's Mountain then?

The British soldiers under Grey had no choice but to use bayonet since he ordered all flints removed, hence his nick name. I had dinner a few months ago in the tavern where he and the other senior British officers planned the assault at Paoli. It was about 15 minutes or so away from the VFCC, for those of you that attended the cons there. Still a functioning tavern and restaurant, and a rather good one too.

the other thing about 'massacres' is that they tended to happen soon after a major setback to the Patriot cause. Paoli after the loss of Philly, Waxhaws after Charleston etc. That's information warfare, 18th Century style…

<<Funny how all the British victories were termed massacres. So what was King's Mountain then?>>

The only one of these "massacres" that actually does fit the description is that at Tappan, where there is evidence that British troops – men of the 2nd Light Infantry – were ordered to bayonet prisoners by their CO, Major Turner von Staubanzee (one officer refused to obey it, but another strolled around NYC for days after with a bloody bayonet still affixed to his fusil). It is the only such incident I have come across involving both sets of "regulars", as opposed to at least one party being militia or irregulars.

It's also interesting that one genuine massacre – by Lee's men of Colonel Pyle's Loyalists (having convinced them they were among friends) – is actually known by the name of the victim, rather than "Butcher Lee's Big Day Out"! By comparison, Tarleton's victory at Waxhaws is a model of propriety – and given the number of prisoners taken and how Buford's wounded were looked after subsequent to the battle, a misnomer.

Note that some of Tarleton's dragoons raped colonial women after Camden. They got in some trouble for this because the women were betrothed to Loyalist officers of other units. Makes one wonder what if anything happened when the women were not so connected.

Tarleton's boys weren't angels, even if the Rebel spin doctors exaggerated.

And the "battle cry" at Germantown was, supposedly, "Remember Wayne's Affair!"…

So it's not like the Doodles felt it was a massacre, either. At least not those in Wayne's Division.

McGuire's book is an excellent read. I took a good mate of mine, who's a TA Officer, to walk the ground and we had a lovely time doing so.

HG, I did not know the tavern was still operating, how was the food and how were the prices? Since I live a few miles from there…

Eric

Remember Tarleton's men were pretty much locals, so might have known these women…

There's a good excuse.

I suspect Spontoon was suggesting that the men raped these women BECAUSE they were so well connected, rather than making excuses.

<<Note that some of Tarleton's dragoons raped colonial women after Camden. They got in some trouble for this because the women were betrothed to Loyalist officers of other units. Makes one wonder what if anything happened when the women were not so connected.>>

Not sure why you use the term "colonial" as if Tarleton's men were somehow different. As to how women who were not so well connected were treated, I think you'll find that their attackers were usually tried and punished when the women brought a complaint (Howe was particularly tough on this crime).

Anyone thinking of coming back with Rawdon's oft-quoted comments prior to the NYC campaign should note that he was making it all up for the benefit of Tory supporters back home – his reference to trials occurring all through the summer is pure invention as there were no courts-martial (for anything) until some months after he wrote.

his reference to trials occurring all through the summer is pure invention as there were no courts-martial (for anything) until some months after he wrote.

Wow, that's very interesting, Super. Are you specifically referring only to *general* courts martial, given rape would have been a capital offence? Or are you including regimental ones too? Do we have reliable lists of all regimental courts martial that might have occurred in that period?

Sorry, yes I was referring to serious offences requiring something more intimidating than the CO's steely stare. Rape would have been handled above regimental level.